/home/bill/Documents/140830 NPA Ivor Catt - Advances in electromagnetic theory and the decline of science.txt ivorcatt.co.uk/x28b.htm npa2.htm - main talk For next meeting, read : npa2.htm - main talk x48uc.tm Newcastle Oct2013 seminar ************** Interesting comments by others : HarryRicker : k1man.com - Monday morning discussion group *********** Howell's comments Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: I love this theme, but I prefer to focus on the [thinking, behaviour] of scientists [individually, sociologically]. Catastrophic failures of [rational,logical, scientific] thinking are NORMAL, not exceptional, amoung essentialy all scientists. If that is the case, it probably reflects all homo sapiens. To me this is the core of the problem. It tells us something about all of us and the reality of our limitations, and the real nature of our general process of thinking. The GENERAL failure of [rational,logical, scientific] thinking isn't necessarily a "bad" thing - given its severe limitations and constraints, and the need to go far beyond this "religious and myopic" view of how we should think. [rational,logical, scientific] thinking is a great and essential tool in a LOCAL context(i.e. works well as long as the thinking is in comliance with the current "religions of an area of science), but a horrible prison. It becomes "bad" when it becomes an instrument of repression and ad hominen behaviours. *********** Full chat ...Howell missed first 2 minutes Greg Volk to Everyone: Thank you, stephane Sam Wise2 to Everyone: I am going to the conference, it should be fun. baunes to Everyone: Sam, how r u getting there? Greg Volk to Everyone: OK, Sam. Let me know how it goes. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: I will be driving, I live in DC. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: This is the power of the group. The survival function of the group is to maintain predictability so that cooperation can occur. The survival function of the individual is to create adaptive change. This puts the individual in competition with the group which can be fatal and our minds try to protect us from those consequences. it takes courage to go against the group. This in addition to all the surface reasons like career money etc. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: My theories are here: http://vixra.org/author/jaroslav_hynecek :-) Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Jerry, I have viewed your papers, you do not agree with Einstein's GR, nor are you a fan of the mainstream, according to your papers. I understand why you support Hilster (Einstein is Wrong). We are on the same page :) Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Basically yes, but Special Relatity Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Special relativity b Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Spacial relativity is OK except for a gravitational mass baunes to Everyone: Jerry, but grav.mass is not part of SR; it does not apply; not part of its domain of applicability. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Yes you are correct except that tha main stream says that the inertial and gravitiational masses are the same baunes to Everyone: Thats a different subject and has nothing to do with SR. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: OK, I agree Paulina to Everyone: Control + to zoom (: Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Our theories are better than the mainstream. Although the mainstrream calls up crackpots. baunes to Everyone: Ther r crackpots everywhere, there and here. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: I have a feeling thatg they are trying to block us Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Based on the mathematics of your theory, you do not have to worry! Jaythree to Everyone: Ivor, I think your reference to Orwell's prescient "1984" is spot on in regards to science, and to most other fields dominated by an entrenched guild. With regard to new scientific insights being ignored and supressed, what about theory that potentially can advance military technology? That is the channel for funding and recognition these days. Can an advance in em theory take advantage of that channel? Or would the research be quietly usurped without credit? Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Well, I found out that when you Google my papers in Physics Essays the response is that they cannot be found eventhou I paid a lot of money for publication. This is strange. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - If "they" can't suppress an idea, they steal it. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Ivor, sounds like you are describing the problems within the NPA. Jaythree to Everyone: Lou, can you reference an example of that? I agree with you but how do you document it? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - In the NPA we at least can speak and publish. It may be that nobody is listening, but persistence can affect that. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - My husband had examples which I will try to resurrect. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Lou, people listen and pay attention, always when they that which is correct or right. Only a fool argues with someone that is mathematicaly and scientifically wrong, with compared to great consensus! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - You sound like mainstream. Everything that is new or original is suspect. Who is the fool in the final analysis. Jaythree to Everyone: Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision was published at the same time as 1984. Sagan et al threated to withdraw their textbooks if MacMillan did not stop printing the book, which challenged gradualism in terrestrial history. Then the mainstream "discovered" catastrophism and took the credit. How's that for an example? baunes to Everyone: Som, nope. People listen to those who scream louder, not to those that are right. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - Very good example. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Baunes is that why you scream loud? Michael Anteski to Everyone: Worlds in Collision was discredsited due to his chronology which related cometary Venus with the Hebrew Exodus in 1500 BC whereas astronolical old charts show Venus inits present orbit before that date. baunes to Everyone: i dont sream. its yyou thats sensitive. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Lou, the fool is the one that continutes to believe, when their work ends up on the left side of Ivor's figure one slide Sam Wise2 to Everyone: baunes, you don't spell well either. baunes to Everyone: yes i do. i just dont pay attention to the keyb. multitasking here Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - I keep an open mind, and tend to believe that the fools are one who "go with the flow". I am always interested in what it is that individuals perceive beneath their attempts to describe what they seel. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: I love this theme, but I prefer to focus on the [thinking, behaviour] of scientists [individually, sociologically]. Catastrophic failures of [rational,logical, scientific] thinking are NORMAL, not exceptional, amoung essentialy all scientists. If that is the case, it probably reflects all homo sapiens. To me this is the core of the problem. It tells us something about all of us and the reality of our limitations, and the real nature of our general process of thinking. The GENERAL failure of [rational,logical, scientific] thinking isn't necessarily a "bad" thing - given its severe limitations and constraints, and the need to go far beyond this "religious and myopic" view of how we should think. [rational,logical, scientific] thinking is a great and essential tool in a LOCAL context(i.e. works well as long as the thinking is in comliance with the current "religions of an area of science), but a horrible prison. It becomes "bad" when it becomes an instrument of repression and ad hominen behaviours. H Ricker to Everyone: Jerry just showed us the phenomenon that Ivor is discussing. Jaythree to Everyone: Michael, sure, Velikovsky got the chronology wrong but the insight was catastrphism not uniformism. There was no space program nor precedent available for his research, only the ancient records of observations in sacred texts and mythology. A tour d'force imo. baunes to Everyone: yes you can have signal on ground. TRY IT! Michael Anteski to Everyone: Jaythree the point is that the mainstream gradualists won by hiws one mistake baunes to Everyone: "ground" means what you want it to mean. It can mean negative, it can mean zero or it can even mean +5 Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Bill and Jaythree - Agree Jaythree to Everyone: Agreed, Michael. Onward for Catt (and his protege Forrest Bishop). Michael Anteski to Everyone: Imbalances of polarities in EM and grav. is only resolved by non random cosmic rebalances in an etheric matrix baunes to Everyone: No, the "zero" is just a reference. H Ricker to Everyone: Jerry is proving the point Ivor is making. baunes to Everyone: Ricker, corrent. baunes to Everyone: correct H Ricker to Everyone: Getting off topic. The bottom line is that people dont understand electricity. In particular Jerry demonstrates that. He thinks he understands but doesn't. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Does anyone agree that there is no charge displacement in the 2 wires. The wires remain "neutrally" charged as the number of positive and negative charges remain balanced. baunes to Everyone: Ricker. Correct. When something is different from what we were taught, we should analyse it, not saying that it is "wrong". Always give it the benifit of doubt. Franklin Hu to Everyone: In figure 4, I don't think there is a -q. If anything, there is a +q that follows around the entire circuit as the TEM step propogates. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: The proof that charges move, is based on the fact that more electrons in "gold" migrate towards attraction more than "copper". H Ricker to Everyone: People don't actually know much. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: That is not what the Displacement currrent is. Greg is wrong as usual. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: The displacement current is the current that exist between any two charged capacitor plates. Jim Marsen to Everyone: Maxwell initially thought of displacement current as flow of the ether Sam Wise2 to Everyone: The displacement current should have transverse wave properties. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Maxwell, used this concept of magnetc field around chages flowing is original Maxwell. Michael Anteski to Everyone: Elemental etheric forces explains current and mag field as same process basically H Ricker to Everyone: This is basic electromagnetism and it is not being understood. That is the problem. Jaythree to Everyone: Current is an emergent property of ionization. I wish I knew how that happens. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: It is clearly understood, this is like fourth graders arguing what the adults know. Michael Anteski to Everyone: Quantal processes are superimposed on basic etheric and causes confusion Sam Wise2 to Everyone: That is right Ivor. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - My understanding is that Faraday gave Maxwell the idea. Mainstream would not accept the idea from Faraday because of his lack of formal education. They accepted it from Maxwell who was not such a fool that he ignored Faraday. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Every scientist accepta Faraday, because he used experimentation as his basis for physics. This is more admirable than Maxwell who used the imagination and mathematics. Michael Anteski to Everyone: Quantum empiricism for basic theory? DonEMitchell to Everyone: Greg, the step is shear Joe Bova to Everyone: We need a chalk board to illustrate the issue. Words do not convey the visual since there is not clear point of reference DonEMitchell to Everyone: Google "vector inversion principle" Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Neither is Maxwell a plagarist, Maxwell, states clearly in his works where his ideas are coming from. Maxwell is organizing the work of others in hs four equations. DonEMitchell to Everyone: and google "spiral pulse generator" baunes to Everyone: Note that this discussion/diagram concerns the macroscopic, time invariant decription. H Ricker to Everyone: Again Jerry is proving the point that he doesn't understand EM theory, because he would rather say Ivor is wrong. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - Experiments are valued higher today than they were in Faraday's and Maxwell's time. I think that Faraday understood more about electricity than we currently understand. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Faraday, made money doing side shows of electricity and magnetism. Paulina to Everyone: There is a new version of Faraday's Journals which are very inexpensive. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Thanks, Paulina Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Faraday worked as a book binder, he would have been able to produce many book if he wished. Paulina to Everyone: Hello Lou (: baunes to Everyone: Note that in Maxwell's EM, there are no "step", it doesnt exist. baunes to Everyone: But macroscopically, it does (its an aproximation) Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Greg, you are assuming incorrectly that a moving magnetic field creates a second magnetic field. That is could be tested easily in a lab. This isdead wrong! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - Faraday could produce books, it is getting people to read them that is the problem. My point is that we still don't understand electricity as our current discussion demonstrates. I think that Faraday intuited more that he was able to ultimately describe because people were not interested. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Maxwell, summarized the work of Faraday in his four electromagnetic equations. Maxwell did not leave anything out of any siginificance from Faraday. Michael Anteski to Everyone: Current/mag field very simple with elemental ether model, with larger processes superimposed Greg Volk to Everyone: Hi Sam, I didn't say anything about magnetic fields. I merely said that the circuit is completed at all tiems. Greg Volk to Everyone: times. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: It is not what you say it is what you don't exaclty say with dissidents. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Ivor is giving a description of charge, currents and magnetic fields. If you know anything about EM you know the basics. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - It is getting over our hubris that we think we know more than we do. Joe Bova to Everyone: The cancellation of two fields does not mean that they do not have an impact, it is only zero at the mathematical zero. All of this is well illustrated withing waveguide theory where we must consder both longitudinal and transverse wave components Michael Anteski to Everyone: Producing an ether force field would be worth trying Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Jerry, there is not Displacement Current in this Drawing. This is crazy. Michael Anteski to Everyone: I have a design for a field test but would be expensive Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Not in this drawing. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Yes. Jerry. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: The argument does not fit th drawing. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: You are not showing how the displacement is created. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: That is right Jerry! Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Ivor is calling the magnetic field associated with the current; and confusing it with the Displacement current. This is true Dissidence! Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Yes. Jerry. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Your argument does not fit your drawings. Joe Bova to Everyone: I believe that Ivor's point is that we are not applying a consistent interpretation of the observable and that we have introduced mathematics to make our ideas fit our theories. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: If you replace your reisitance (R) in your drawing with a coil, then you can talk Displacement current, in the coils. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: There is no Displacement Current in flowing wires! Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Please study electromagnetism, and take Harry to class with you. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Also bring Greg to class with you also. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: No. There is no Displacement current in the Step. Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam, there is however a change of field between current flowing in parallel wires, and if that force is in motion, it has an associated magnetic field, hence then need to introduce the concept of displacement current. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: There is not Displacemnt current that flow though wires in one direction. If the wire is wound, then you can get a displacement current. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Joe - I agree. Sam you must be of the opinion that all that can be understood about electricity is understood. There is nothing more to be learned. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: No. Lou. I disagree, with that. But this is not it! Sam Wise2 to Everyone: There is much more to learn about EM. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - Fair enough. Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam, the experiment to prove this can be done with a battery, wire and a compass. Its worth trying the experiment. Paulina to Everyone: Where is this discussed on hyperphysics? http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html Sam Wise2 to Everyone: I have a lab in my basement, and I have done these simple experiments. He should do the same. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Pick up a text book and read! nicholas dicarlo2 to Everyone: hello this is my first time attending and NPA online meting. Are they recorded and avaialble after the fact? thank you nicholas dicarlo2 to Everyone: wow.sorry about the typos. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Nicolas - They are recorded and are available on the NPA website. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Maxwell, was organizing all of the equations of EM at the time, and based on the known mathematics at the time; he helped us all, so that we did not have to do that work everytime, we approached the field of EM.. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: I can do it in my basement, with two charged plates separted by a 1inch gap. nicholas dicarlo2 to Everyone: Thank you Lou. I will look for them Sam Wise2 to Everyone: The current flows throught the wires, therefore, something must be jumping from one plate to the other plate. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: The something according to Maxwell is a Displacement Current. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Current in a wire is not the same thing as Displacement current. The current in a wire is the electrons flowing through the medium of the wire; and the Displacement Current is the electrons flowing through empty space or vacuum! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Ivor - There are people studying this. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Here is an experiment that you can do to measure the Displacment current. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Make two of these. Take a long wire and wind it into a coil; once agagin make two of these. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Place the two coils adjacent with a 0.5-1 inch air gap. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Then connect a battery to the ends of one of the coil. Michael Anteski to Everyone: Sam the elemental units are etheric and work via vibrational resonance, simple model unlike quantum processes of spin, vectors, etc. Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Then attached a voltage meter to the other coil. You will measure the displacement current. Joe Bova to Everyone: But this is not the monday morning meeting. Al Schrader to Everyone: Hi\ Sam Wise2 to Everyone: Greg, to me it reveals your understanding of EM. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Thanks, Ivor and Greg. Thanks, All. Good discussion. nicholas dicarlo2 to Everyone: very interesting for my first time attending an NPA online event Joe Bova to Everyone: Yes baunes to Everyone: greg, remove that screen. Just wasting bandwidtsand slowing down the system. baunes to Everyone: Much better Paulina to Everyone: It's PAL osvaldo domann3 to Everyone: Thank you everybody Cornelis to Everyone: Many of us may work on Monday Al Schrader3 to Everyone: Hi group not getting sound enddoc