/home/bill/Projects/NPA - physics/140802 NPA member survey.txt ***************************** Howell's comments (my written notes of verbal exchange): Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Who owns the copyright to the NPA proceedings and postings? If authors didn't sign anything to grant ownership to the NPA or WSD, then are they still owners, and are in a position (individually, and joint & severally) to refuse further [storage, use, distribution, sale] by the hijacked NPA organisation? Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: I would like to contribute a modest amount to a 5 k$ fund to compensate (in a manner far sort of the value of his efforts) David de Hilster, independent of the current process (to avoid long delays). There is a website to organize financing/funding (can't remember it's name). Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: This is just awesome to have Jim Newburn and Sam Falaki in the conversation! We don't have to resolve aything right now (although it would be nice to have some sort of agreement to sme next steps - like an election at the end of August), but having a public dialog going really helps. Great education for me. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Sam Wise - It is very important for me to see PRO-Relativity papers and ideas in the NPA. It is more important that te NPA NOT become a "small-world" restricted viewpoint/religion of science, and that we get all viewpoints. I don't think I'm alone with that viewpoint. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: "Higher standards" is a nice term, but perhaps it more important to see the ideas of those who are developing concepts that may not work out in the end, but still stimulate thinking, even if the individuals are amateurs who may lack the rigour and background of "professional scientists", and who don't have a strong mathematical or theoretical basis in a conventional sense. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Let's have an election at the end of August! Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Sam Falaki - Overwhelming member demands can certainly be seen by bullying, I imagine that every pokitician feels that sometimes. That's the way it maybe should be. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Let's have a follow-up webcast in two weeks, with potential candidates presenting an action plan/vision for an end-of-August election. **************************** Others comments that caught my eye **************************** Full chat stream Paulina to Everyone: Hi Greg. Paulina to Everyone: Lou LaFollette is not here yet. Nick Percival to Everyone: Let's do the 2 motions first!!! H Ricker to Everyone: Nick, I think the main issue is the assertion that the members have no standing to vote under Maryland law. Hans van Leunen to Everyone: Sorry I have to leave. Greetings to you all Greg Volk to Everyone: Access phone # (201) 479-4595 Meeting number 25430427 Nick Percival to Everyone: Harry, that is indeed a key issue, however, my reading of the law is that it's quite clear and quite explicit that the members have the right - Duncan Shaw agrees (he's a retired, I think, Supreme Court Judge in NH) H Ricker to Everyone: This is what they said:“Maryland law guarantees an inalienable right to members of a non-profit organization to elect its officers.” An absolutely false statement as applied to NPA. The key definition Greg, David and Duncan Shaw ignore is where Maryland code states “Member means a person who: (1) Owns stock in a cooperative having capital stock; or (2) Holds a certificate of membership in a cooperative not having capital stock.” NPA is not a cooperative, therefore members have no inherent right to elect directors. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Harry - You are wrong. The Maryland law gives organizations with members rights equivalent to stockholders. Nick Percival to Everyone: Harry, I don't have the law in front of me, but for the nPA, it says something along the lines that the stockholders can vote, but when there are no stockholders, it's the memebrs ' right- pretty clear adn we great authority saying it's indeed pretty clear.and explicit. Issues have been brought up that are irrelevant. Sam Wise to Everyone: New Name: AMP - Anit-Mainstream Philisophy Leo August to Everyone: After 501(c)3, before. Clubs don't have rights. H Ricker to Everyone: Lou, I merely posted what the board said. I think until this is resolved the dispute is unresolvable. Greg Volk2 to Everyone: Cornelis: Did you get my email? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Harry - I understand. I merely gave our position which is plain in the law. We don't want to have to go to the expense of going to Court. Sam Wise to Everyone: Have two conferences. We should have the Anti-Mainstream Physics conference. Greg Volk2 to Everyone: Cornelis: From Bob de Hilster H Ricker to Everyone: What is the MAJOR ISSUE!!!! Peter Hahn2 to Everyone: Anti-Mainstream sounds too negative and rebelious. We want to work WITH the mainstream, not against them. Sam Wise to Everyone: How do you resign and still want to be the leader at the same time? Did you get straight A's in school? Leo August to Everyone: Behave, Sam... that talk is what broke the NPA originally. Sam Wise to Everyone: Peter: Our views are not mainstream, let's accept our positions! Sam Wise to Everyone: I would like to nominate and vote for a scientist to receive a Sagnac award. How do I do that? Sam Wise to Everyone: Do the NPA members vote for who receives the Sagnac award? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Good idea, Sam Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, does that mean that only Greg decides who get awards? David de Hilster to Everyone: We need to solve the bigger issue, then we can have it so members can have a say. Right now, they do not. Cornelis Verhey to Everyone: Bob I have not recieved any emails to me from you or the gravity group on your behalf. Joe Bova to Everyone: Sometimes the greatest things come from adversity. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: The Board decides. Sam Wise to Everyone: The old board or the new board has decided? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: The Board whoever it happens to be. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Who owns the copyright to the NPA proceedings and postings? If authors didn't sign anything to grant ownership to the NPA or WSD, then are they still owners, and are in a position (individually, and joint & severally) to refuse further [storage, use, distribution, sale] by the hijacked NPA organisation? Sam Wise to Everyone: Wow. We have Judge Shaw working with us and he can't resolve the problem legally. And he is a judge, he must also be Anti-Mainstream like us. Go Judge! Joe Bova to Everyone: LOL Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Bill - that is an issue with respect to the current By Laws. Greg Volk2 to Everyone: Cornelis: I will try to send it again. Bob Jaythree to Everyone: Of course it's a personal issue...and a classic case of the founders vs professional management brought in at a certain stage of organizational growth. The founders resent the loss of control after years of what they claim selfless efforts. Management brings in what they learned are sustainable methods for continued growth, including the stabilization of intellectual property and assets in the case of online-based opewrations. Entrepreneurs hate a professionallly managed environment by nature. Personalities are irrelevant here; it is neither family nor a power struggle but a stage in the maturity of an organization. The founders need to consider their future needs and claims on member loyalty and emotional appeals need to be overcome in the interest of self-honesty. I think the current board is doing exactly what a professional auditor would expect, including rebuilding vital software that is essentially unmaintainable by anyone but the original coder. I say all this after having been a founder who was shocked by the loss of control I experienced in similar circumstances, but who later appreciated professional management after the company gained national prominence. David de Hilster to Everyone: JayThree, please give us your real name. David de Hilster to Everyone: It is not polite to be anonymous. David de Hilster to Everyone: Who are you? Jim Newburn is using his real name. I respect that. Sam Wise to Everyone: JayThree reveal yourself? Sujak Peter to Everyone: Sam Wise give us your real name Sam Wise to Everyone: That is my real name! David de Hilster to Everyone: You cannot have a discussion when people hide their identity. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jay Three - Depends upon what the members want of their organization. Are we interested in national prominence and professional management over which we have no control and not even information. Sam Wise to Everyone: I think that he means that various NPA members are using other members ideas without acknowleging their works. Jaythree to Everyone: I've replied numerous times to the founders' email appeals using my real name. I've never had a response so I'm going back under my rock. As an aside, it's the board of directors that set the mission, strategies and tactics; democracy m,ust be declared in the Articles if that's what was desired. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - That is exactly the problem. We do not like the mission strategies and tactics of the current Board. Jaythree to Everyone: Then start another organization with the goals you want to achieve and the organization structure to achieve them. Sam Wise to Everyone: I agree with Jaythree! Leo August to Everyone: We are started, Jaythree... here we are, we're underway. Sam Wise to Everyone: Start a new organization, that mathes our views of Anti-mainstream. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - That is certainly an option, but we had an organization which was taken from us without our permission. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: I would like to contribute a modest amount to a 5 k$ fund to compensate (in a manner far sort of the value of his efforts) David de Hilster, independent of the current process (to avoid long delays). There is a website to organize financing/funding (can't remember it's name). Jaythree to Everyone: Wrong. You did not have the permission to give. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou there is obvioulsly differences in philisophy, in group that values difference in philisophy. Imagine That! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - That is an issue which I am sure a court would decide in our favor. The issue is do we want to go to the expense. Sujak Peter to Everyone: I agree with 5k to compensate David and Greg work Sam Wise to Everyone: I am not sure that a Judge, would rule in favor of persons that have resigned from the organization. Start a new Anti-Mainstream Philisophy org. Curt to Everyone: Sorry guys! Sujak Peter to Everyone: 5k to Greg and 5k to greg Sujak Peter to Everyone: sorz 5k to david and 5k to greg Jaythree to Everyone: I spent $35,000 on legal fees in a similar situation. It was a Pyhrric victory for me, not worth the pain. I was immature and jealous. I should have moved on to what I really wanted. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Greg's resignation is not a fact that would have bearing on the law. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Jaythree - great comment. Sam Wise to Everyone: Organization, have leaders that rise and fall through the ranks of the organization all of the time. If they want to become leaders again, let them rise through the ranks again. Putin, returned to leadership after being disposed! Your turn to try! Curt to Everyone: A lawsuit would be silly in this case. You can vot with your membership. If things can't be fixed, just leave. Curt to Everyone: vote* Joe Bova to Everyone: Curt, we have. Leo August to Everyone: Sam, are you aware that David's orginal copyright of his web was seized under threat of lawsuit? Your remarks are disturbingly disrespectful to this anonymous supporter. Curt to Everyone: I agree with what Greg just said. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Introduce impeachment into bylaws Sam Wise to Everyone: Leo, I am on your side. Does David own the NPA for copyright? Curt to Everyone: maximum 5 step plan, easily stated and understood. rkiehn to Everyone: In all cases the older presentations of NPA should not be lost. Leo August to Everyone: Leo, David wrote the code, and is author, with copyright for life until assigned. The science papers are not his ownership. The server code and the data-driven web-site are David's creation, from scratch. Leo August to Everyone: Being paid for formating and data entry on a system designed to feed open-source papers, does not mean a thing in relation to ownership of the algorithms written to generically feed blocks of characters. Sam Wise to Everyone: Leo, that is why the new board is building a new website. All of David's code belongs to him. All David has to do is to attach a new name to his site "Anti-Mainstream Philisophy" Jim Newburn to Everyone: iI'll have to call in Leo August to Everyone: Expectations are low. Curt to Everyone: I gave a set of guidelines to John Chappel once: Mathematically consistent, etc. Sam Wise to Everyone: Greg's claim's other's theorise as his own! Therefore, other follow their leaders. Curt to Everyone: I can probably find that in my archives Sam Wise to Everyone: I have also heard in emails that Greg, has prevented others from using NPA fuze tools? Sam Wise to Everyone: Jim, you are right. Power corrupts absolutely! Franklin Hu to Everyone: The problem is that a large majority of the membership is in disagreement with the current board, that is why there is a problem. Franklin Hu to Everyone: If the membership was in agreement with the board, elections and members rights would not be as relevant. Sam Wise to Everyone: Franklin, which board? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Greg is one who knows and credits what the members views on various scientific issues. I am impressed with how much members use and credit the work of others members. Are there examples of plagarism? I have seen none. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, I have seen plenty! Franklin Hu to Everyone: The current NPA board does not appear to have the support of the general membership. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - In the journals or on line? Sam Wise to Everyone: Franklin, you mean our Anti-Mainstream membership? Franklin Hu to Everyone: Who else would be the membership - those who responded to the survey. Joe Bova to Everyone: This is good conversation between Jim and Greg. Dialog is paramount in resolving all conflicts. The goal should be win - win Curt to Everyone: Agreed joe Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, printed works, emails, and websites. Paulina to Everyone: The dues rates for different types of members were discussed. Joe Bova to Everyone: Jim- Ithought I saw a tiered membership Paulina to Everyone: Bill Lucas did confirm that separate dues rates for members was discussed. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Paulina - I agree. There was a message on the website with 2 levels of membership and the "professional" level was something like $100. Sam Wise to Everyone: Until, Springer, and Newburn, came onboard, David and Greg, were building the NPA as their personal organization. They should complete their goal, by starting a new "Anti-Mainstream" organization. Joe Bova to Everyone: That letter sound like at threat Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Everything is on the website www.worldnpa.org for those who care to fact-check Paulina to Everyone: That is changing dues, drastically. Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam, I disagree. Others have offered to help and have never been denied the opportunity. Plus, that Greg recoginzed the need for better orgination, that means he was not interested in being in control Sam Wise to Everyone: Joe, actions speak louder than words. Joe Bova to Everyone: Can this be published on BOTH website??? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Greg's need for control hasalways been the big show-stopper. All this about "power to the people" is smoke and mirrors. It's avout Dave's desie to use the NPA to showcase his multimillion dollar technology Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: http://worldnpa.org Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: sorry, I mean Dave's need for g=control Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam, yes. Greg's action was to recruit Barry and Jim to become part of the organizational structur Sam Wise to Everyone: Sam, that is correct! Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: it's al about the website, therest is trivial. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: I can tell you all about the website if you want Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: THe poll was sent to over 1500 people, the majority are not NPA members, whih is strange Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam and Sam - May I say that you are deluded? David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, it was sent to almost 2000 and haveing 10% answer is actually higher than normal. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: the questions are framed as non-neutral. it's a poor survey,looks like soviet era propaganda Miles Osmaston to Everyone: Jim Should realize that the convener of any conference session has to decide what contributions to include to create a session with the intended form as advertized that contributions were invited. Non-acceptance is a hazard for every sumbission. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Why are non-members being polled? David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, really, soviet? David de Hilster to Everyone: Everyone who showed interest by signing up for the newsletter had input. David de Hilster to Everyone: If it were members, the numbers would have reflected the same. David de Hilster to Everyone: These are non-points. David de Hilster to Everyone: Does the current board care about its members, listen to them, and address them? David de Hilster to Everyone: Tim Cook of Apple listens to his shareholders. David de Hilster to Everyone: That is the only issue. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: redareship of emails from everyon has dropped due to the midslinging Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: muslinging David de Hilster to Everyone: Our surveys simple show the facts. Sam Wise to Everyone: I think that most people have dropped off, because most of the vocal members are "Anti-Relativity". Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: We'reoperatng how most non-profits operate David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, we are growing, so where is this "dropping off" David de Hilster to Everyone: lets keep to the issue and no makeup stuff as you go. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Falaki - We are not primarily a non-profit. Sam Wise to Everyone: And the leaders at the time are really supportive of Anti-Relativity science, and this is why only those that are "Anti-Mainstream" have remained. David de Hilster to Everyone: NPA = Membership Organization Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: There re n sharelholders David de Hilster to Everyone: Simple David de Hilster to Everyone: The current board does not subscribe to that. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: that is incorrect Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Wise - I agree that the anti-relativists may be driving out the relativists which is unfortunate. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, say that again, I don't think that they heard you! Jim Newburn to Everyone: I'll call Greg Volk to Everyone: David, can you please reload the survey? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Falaki - That is the primary problem. We are not primarily a non-profit. That is changing the nature of the organization. We are more like a corporation with stockholders. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Allt thise questions are on on the website worldnpa.org. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Ful transparency on the website, do your fact checking Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: raising dues was never discussed Paulina to Everyone: Raising dues was discussed. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: That is incorrect. It was never discussed. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Only thing discussed was to expand waiving of dues Paulina to Everyone: It was discussed, in terms of raising dues for some members to become premium, based on the preferences of the board. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: no, that is incorrect. I was there and you were not. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: THe only thing that was discussed is to encourage free regisered users to beome paid members at 35/50 per year Paulina to Everyone: I asked Bill Lucas, and he affirmed that this was discussed. Sam Wise to Everyone: When, others came in, they saw that there were Draconian actions taking place behind the scenes. All in the name of Physics Dissidence. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: That is incorrect. and you can just visit ou website and take the time to read and chacthefacts Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: check the facts on http://worldnpa.org, full transparency there Paulina to Everyone: You can just look at the chat. It is in writing at the open meeting. Paulina to Everyone: My microphone malfunctioned. James Rose to Everyone: It is NOT appropriate to restrict the open exploratrory nature of the organization to any one preferrred Model of the structure, nature or behavior version of the universe. Open Code - 'open access to information and ideas' is the best protocol for science. Using the commercial model that restricts access to information by the ability of a person to purchase access at extraordinary costs is anti-thetical to a thriving openScience. That a board has sole 'peer-review' authority - with themselves un-vetted for knowledge base in any fields - is unconscionable. This all sounds like the current board has hi-jacked the NPA to promote their personal science biases and to enforce 'poll-taxes' to exclude real dissenters and the possibility for alternative viable new ideas. Paulina to Everyone: May I make a statement please, to be read aloud. Sam Wise to Everyone: James, that i intrepreted, only Greg and David running the NPA will allow my "Anti-Mainstream" science papers. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Look at the guidance for published works and tell me where it says there is preretial theories: http://worldnpa.org/about/governance-documents/ Bent Nielsen to Everyone: I fully endorse that wiew, Rose Jim Newburn to Everyone: worldnpa.org does work and quite well Paulina to Everyone: The reason the motion of no confidence should go forward is not complex. The current board did not reimberse Dave and Greg. They then used litigation to seize both websites. This is not the leadership needed for the NPA. Leo August to Everyone: And worldnpa.org right now cites the old web site as full of spam and shut down Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: An agreement was made to exchange money for Dave transferring the website. He was supposed to do it in December and never did Sam Wise to Everyone: Paulina, it is about more than money. Money is just the side issue! Jim Newburn to Everyone: Greg was paid and the checks cleared-I'm Treasurer Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The real issue is Dave's insistence on controlling the website Paulina to Everyone: When was Greg reimbursed? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jim - How about a treasurer's report? Sam Wise to Everyone: Jim, that I believe, Greg is not complainng about not being paid, only David is complainng. Jim Newburn to Everyone: a few days after he submitted invoice Paulina to Everyone: /That was after the Paulina to Everyone: petition. Jim Newburn to Everyone: no- well prior Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: my mic isunmuted James Rose to Everyone: [technical] - I do not see a 'flag' opiton on my Fuze screen. help please. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: ok let eosmoene else go firt Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: while I fix my mic David de Hilster to Everyone: My wife going through our suit cases which is where we are living out of right now! Jim Newburn to Everyone: I'm leaving meeting for a few min. I'll reset flag in a few minutes Sam Wise to Everyone: David, I lost my job, lost my wife, and was forced to move in with my aging parents. David is this the problem of the NPA? David de Hilster to Everyone: No true. Paulina to Everyone: That is an ad hom which cannot be verified. David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, you appologized to me publically in front of Greg that your statement was wrong. Leo August to Everyone: I identify Sam Falaki2, anonymously and rudely, as a sociopath and really totally unaware of what he has done. David de Hilster to Everyone: Now you are saying something different. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: The new website looks great! A new design was sorely needed. David de Hilster to Everyone: I have witnesses. David de Hilster to Everyone: So, plesae tell the truth. David de Hilster to Everyone: THat was public knowledge. Paulina to Everyone: The fact is that the two websites were taken using letigious actions, which the membership does not support. David de Hilster to Everyone: This is a very funny view of things Sam. Leo August to Everyone: Two web sites was when a non-programmer advising the take-over team got in over his head ---totally Sam Wise to Everyone: Most of the world science databse, is filled with works not submited by the scientists themselves, but Greg, was inserting them, without their permission. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lots of smoke and mirrors everywhere! Leo August to Everyone: Sam Wise: because nobody else would help Greg put the boxes and boxes of documents from the orginal founders of years... be gentle and spoken less derisevely, please. Sam Wise to Everyone: Leo, you mean stop, breaking the mirrors. Joe Bova to Everyone: The issue is that the board does not seem to care what the membership wants Miguel Kovac to Everyone: Good morning. One advice to be applied for the long time in the future. There are passed experiences which are worthwhile to be studied, for example the twelve concepts for world services of anonymous organizations, in the way that the services are inherited to the collective community. Sam Wise to Everyone: Bova, the board does not seem to care with the "Anti-Relativist" membership wants. This is not all of the membership. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: I have no reason to not tell thetruth Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam Wise, if the members want something different, then were are their votes? Paulina to Everyone: The NPA wanted to make the website useful to younger people, in order to introduce them to alternative scientific theories. Leo August to Everyone: Sam F. You are portrayed by your presentation as a young-male narcissist that is unable to live outside a denial trip that is projected rather than your incompetance in the social world that scares you to support take-over opportunities Paulina to Everyone: Also, Dave made opportunities available for members to publish. Sam Wise to Everyone: Only the Ant-Relativity members, fill out the surveys and voice their opinions. Paulina to Everyone: This is important in science. Jim Newburn to Everyone: Sam is correct. Registration was difficult.I told many people (I was /conf Coordinator) to show up and pay at conf. about 15 -18 people did so. I had great resistance from deHilster on registration and promotion of conf. Attendance was in low fifties-not 80 Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: This is just awesome to have Jim Newburn and Sam Falaki in the conversation! We don't have to resolve aything right now (although it would be nice to have some sort of agreement to sme next steps - like an election at the end of August), but having a public dialog going really helps. Great education for me. Sam Wise to Everyone: Their was a power grab, but it was grabbed back by the new board. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Wise - Since Relativity is solid mainstream, it makes sense that anti-Relativity would be where dissidents are at. None the less, I think that we should encourage and respect the Relativists. Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2: as you grow older, with luck, you will reckognize that you post business ethics and practice on 'TACKY TALK' which comes to mind as your ponder your ploy. Jim Newburn to Everyone: There were many people who had trouble with registration!! Hans Strupat to Everyone: Jim, I am old and I had NO problem registering for the 2013 conference. Leo August to Everyone: Sam F. ---TACKY TALK-- WAS WHAT BROUGHT DOWN THE MEMBERSHIP Paulina to Everyone: Regarding Sam Wise, I do not think any one would agree to call this community "Anti-Mainstream." Sam Wise to Everyone: This is very simple. Make the Worldsci.org a new organization, with Anti-Relativity viewpoints highlighted. Sam Wise to Everyone: And make it a new organization, for the Anti-Relativits Sam Wise to Everyone: Greg is not that emotional, because, he got his money. Jim Newburn to Everyone: I've never suggested anything about relativity in NPA Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Guidelines for science are published on the website Sam Wise to Everyone: Jim, should the NPA be mainly Anti-Relativity. Sam Wise to Everyone: ? Jim Newburn to Everyone: I can talk now Paulina to Everyone: Using scientific consensus to keep the board and membership closed is not following the guidelines which were published. Joe Bova to Everyone: The comments about relativity are interesting, because I can recall listenting to at least one presenter on a Saturday conference, the supported the theory of relativity francis to Everyone: I would like to add that in 2008 Iwas 46 and it was the first video conference for he NPA and that too from India to New Mexico-cheers to that Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jim - Relativity vs Anti- Relativity is not a problem of the present Board. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Sam Wise - It is very important for me to see PRO-Relativity papers and ideas in the NPA. It is more important that te NPA NOT become a "small-world" restricted viewpoint/religion of science, and that we get all viewpoints. I don't think I'm alone with that viewpoint. Phil Bouchard to Everyone: We should hear Jim before the end Leo August to Everyone: Sam F. has not a clue what his derision entails... mostly narcissism and ploy over and again. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Joe - I think that may have been Robert Kemp. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, believe it or not this is a big problem with the NPA. When the leaders push this view, all of their followers will be similar. Sujak Peter to Everyone: In 1920 the most respected physics of world W.Vien, P. Lenard, Sommerfeld, Nernst, Weyland, Debye, Rubens based Union of German Natural Scientists and organized putsch at konference in Nauhaim congress v 1920. Content of putsch was "Einstein as plagiarist; anyone who supports relativity theory is a propagandist; the theory itself as Dadaist (this word was actually uttered!)." Leo August to Everyone: Follow the money ---> Sam Falaki2 doing the present work for free? Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2: you are trending into socio-manic babble, where points of persuasion are lewd. Paulina to Everyone: They said also that they had to teach the members of the NPA about scientific standards. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Wise - I agree that it is an issue to be addressed. Sam Wise to Everyone: This is the viewpoint of the organization promoted by David and Greg: "Content of putsch was "Einstein as plagiarist; anyone who supports relativity theory is a propagandist; the theory itself as Dadaist (this word was actually uttered!)." Paulina to Everyone: Suing the builders and then saying that they had no scientific standards both show that a vote of no confidence must go forward. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: You're doig a good jobGreg, thanks for allowing me to speak Sam Wise to Everyone: Paulina, the builders, do not have any scientific standards. This is why a new NPA is needed. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I totally agree Sam Paulina to Everyone: Thank you. I prefer clarity to agreement. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: I also totally disagree. That is the whole point of the NPA is to allow various views to come forward. H Ricker to Everyone: Not a member driven organization????? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Leo, can you please use reason and civility? We're supposed to begrownups. Paulina to Everyone: ATTN: Sam says: "Paulina, the builders, do not have any scientific standards. This is why a new NPA is needed." Sam Wise to Everyone: Nick: Who's Who of Anti-Relativity responded only! Roger Tobie to Everyone: I had thought it was a member driven organization. Apparently I was mistaken. Joe Bova to Everyone: IF this is not a member driven group, then i want my membership dues. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I agree. The old NPA doesn't have any basic epistemological standards and that's its #1 problem. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I really look forward to what the new board is doing. David de Hilster to Everyone: Answer the question Sam Wise to Everyone: Jonathan, this I agree with totaly. Please say that again, I don't think that those that should hear, have heard you. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: "Higher standards" is a nice term, but perhaps it more important to see the ideas of those who are developing concepts that may not work out in the end, but still stimulate thinking, even if the individuals are amateurs who may lack the rigour and background of "professional scientists", and who don't have a strong mathematical or theoretical basis in a conventional sense. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The albuquerque had only 2-3 people interested inpresenting. THe conference for late november is filling up fast. This indicates that we are doing theright thing on the current board. David de Hilster to Everyone: Answer the question Paulina to Everyone: These men issued letters of legal action to the people who developed the NPA. Then they claimed that the standards and scientific standards needed to be decided by themselves. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Agreed, Bill Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Barry and Dave should not resign due to cyber-bullying. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: sorry, Barry and Jim Jonathan Powers to Everyone: Bill Howell, your description fits myself to a tee. Having a basic standard of reason and logic does not exclude those people. Sam Wise to Everyone: These individuals should not be leaders of a science organization that does not "even if the individuals are amateurs who may lack the rigour and background of "professional scientists", and who don't have a strong mathematical or theoretical basis in a conventional sense." Paulina to Everyone: Also, the board was enlarged only after the meeting which said that the board was not taking new members. So that was also the result of criticism. Leo August to Everyone: Leave your trite and underinformed judgements to yourself, Sam Falaki2... what side of the tracks were you raised on, man? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Thanks Leo, for your constructive remarks Lou LaFollette to Everyone: It sounds like we have two visions of what the NPA is all about and maybe a split is appropriate. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: WE have a great turnot for theconference Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I was shocked that Greg and David tried to organize a conference under the NPA name when they had no authority to do so. The new board was right to take legal action. Paulina to Everyone: They took the money and the two websites by legal force, and then said that no one was qualified to criticise scientific theories. Leo August to Everyone: Paulina, they took it "by threat of legal action" tacticts intending a take-over all the while Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I wish Greg and David would just start another organization. According to them, they would have the vast majority of the NPA membership with them right off the bat Paulina to Everyone: Most dissident scientists DO NOT have degrees or careers in their area of interest! Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Dave, it will be amatter of time before your site gets taken down by hackers again. It's the reason we had to do the switchover Leo August to Everyone: Interpreting David: the take-over board took the word of a consultant (Sam Falaki2) as proof they were seeking of David's incompetance, and at the advise of a consultant completely unaware of the custome software archeture, or aware that he was that much in-over-his-head. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The agreement wasmade, but Dave failed to fullfil his part when I found out about the dependency on worldsci Joe Bova to Everyone: I did Paulina to Everyone: If Barry and Jim do beleive they are uniquely qualified to judge scientific work, then they should go to another site. But no one would join it. Leo August to Everyone: Sam... back off your intent to destroy!!! David had been threatened to release his very own copyright under idiotic threats only you (ONLY YOU) choose to support with any validity. Are you now being paid to do the work David provided (server code)? Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I never paid dues because I didn't want to support an organization with no basic standards of logic. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I did attend two conferences, though. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Paulina: incorrect statement. THe science comittee is composed of Cynthia Whitny, Martin Kokus and Bill Lucas. Barry, Jim and I jave nothing to say about the scientific standards Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: "Higher standards" is a nice term, but perhaps it more important to see the ideas of those who are developing concepts that may not work out in the end, but still stimulate thinking, even if the individuals are amateurs who may lack the rigour and background of "professional scientists", and who don't have a strong mathematical or theoretical basis in a conventional sense. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The albuquerque had only 2-3 people interested inpresenting. THe conference for late november is filling up fast. This indicates that we are doing theright thing on the current board. David de Hilster to Everyone: Answer the question Paulina to Everyone: These men issued letters of legal action to the people who developed the NPA. Then they claimed that the standards and scientific standards needed to be decided by themselves. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Agreed, Bill Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Barry and Dave should not resign due to cyber-bullying. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: sorry, Barry and Jim Jonathan Powers to Everyone: Bill Howell, your description fits myself to a tee. Having a basic standard of reason and logic does not exclude those people. Sam Wise to Everyone: These individuals should not be leaders of a science organization that does not "even if the individuals are amateurs who may lack the rigour and background of "professional scientists", and who don't have a strong mathematical or theoretical basis in a conventional sense." Paulina to Everyone: Also, the board was enlarged only after the meeting which said that the board was not taking new members. So that was also the result of criticism. Leo August to Everyone: Leave your trite and underinformed judgements to yourself, Sam Falaki2... what side of the tracks were you raised on, man? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Thanks Leo, for your constructive remarks Lou LaFollette to Everyone: It sounds like we have two visions of what the NPA is all about and maybe a split is appropriate. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: WE have a great turnot for theconference Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I was shocked that Greg and David tried to organize a conference under the NPA name when they had no authority to do so. The new board was right to take legal action. Paulina to Everyone: They took the money and the two websites by legal force, and then said that no one was qualified to criticise scientific theories. Leo August to Everyone: Paulina, they took it "by threat of legal action" tacticts intending a take-over all the while Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I wish Greg and David would just start another organization. According to them, they would have the vast majority of the NPA membership with them right off the bat Paulina to Everyone: Most dissident scientists DO NOT have degrees or careers in their area of interest! Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Dave, it will be amatter of time before your site gets taken down by hackers again. It's the reason we had to do the switchover Leo August to Everyone: Interpreting David: the take-over board took the word of a consultant (Sam Falaki2) as proof they were seeking of David's incompetance, and at the advise of a consultant completely unaware of the custome software archeture, or aware that he was that much in-over-his-head. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The agreement wasmade, but Dave failed to fullfil his part when I found out about the dependency on worldsci Joe Bova to Everyone: I did Paulina to Everyone: If Barry and Jim do beleive they are uniquely qualified to judge scientific work, then they should go to another site. But no one would join it. Leo August to Everyone: Sam... back off your intent to destroy!!! David had been threatened to release his very own copyright under idiotic threats only you (ONLY YOU) choose to support with any validity. Are you now being paid to do the work David provided (server code)? Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I never paid dues because I didn't want to support an organization with no basic standards of logic. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I did attend two conferences, though. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Paulina: incorrect statement. THe science comittee is composed of Cynthia Whitny, Martin Kokus and Bill Lucas. Barry, Jim and I jave nothing to say about the scientific standards Paulina to Everyone: That is not what they have communicated in recent emails. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Leo: I receive no money for the website. Just visit the website and read through it for your ownfact-checking Paulina to Everyone: They said that they were needed at the NPA to show the members what the scientific method was. And if you want a group Duncan Shaw to Everyone: The phone line is not receiving my call. Paulina to Everyone: That tells you what the scientific method is, then join one. Duncan Shaw to Everyone: May I type my thoughts? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: WE hired a contractor for the website but he didn't finish the job, I had to jump in and finish (as an unpaid volunteer) Leo August to Everyone: (and the unpaid volunteer commenced to badmouth all the stuff he didn't understand) JIM N to Everyone: dialing Paulina to Everyone: But the scientific method and the development of ideas had excellent perameters as seen David de Hilster to Everyone: duncan, what is your phone number? David de Hilster to Everyone: I can call? Paulina to Everyone: on the WSD site. Joe Bova to Everyone: I would NOT change my response!!! Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2: perhaps you can run your own survey. Will you survey questions you compose? Paulina to Everyone: Karl Popper said that rational criticism is the only way out of stuck paradigms. Paulina to Everyone: And rational criticism is not coming from self-styled experts. Paulina to Everyone: The NPA provided that platform. David de Hilster to Everyone: JayThree, please give us your real name. David de Hilster to Everyone: It is not polite to be anonymous. David de Hilster to Everyone: Who are you? Jim Newburn is using his real name. I respect that. Sam Wise to Everyone: JayThree reveal yourself? Sujak Peter to Everyone: Sam Wise give us your real name Sam Wise to Everyone: That is my real name! David de Hilster to Everyone: You cannot have a discussion when people hide their identity. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jay Three - Depends upon what the members want of their organization. Are we interested in national prominence and professional management over which we have no control and not even information. Sam Wise to Everyone: I think that he means that various NPA members are using other members ideas without acknowleging their works. Jaythree to Everyone: I've replied numerous times to the founders' email appeals using my real name. I've never had a response so I'm going back under my rock. As an aside, it's the board of directors that set the mission, strategies and tactics; democracy m,ust be declared in the Articles if that's what was desired. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - That is exactly the problem. We do not like the mission strategies and tactics of the current Board. Jaythree to Everyone: Then start another organization with the goals you want to achieve and the organization structure to achieve them. Sam Wise to Everyone: I agree with Jaythree! Leo August to Everyone: We are started, Jaythree... here we are, we're underway. Sam Wise to Everyone: Start a new organization, that mathes our views of Anti-mainstream. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - That is certainly an option, but we had an organization which was taken from us without our permission. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: I would like to contribute a modest amount to a 5 k$ fund to compensate (in a manner far sort of the value of his efforts) David de Hilster, independent of the current process (to avoid long delays). There is a website to organize financing/funding (can't remember it's name). Jaythree to Everyone: Wrong. You did not have the permission to give. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou there is obvioulsly differences in philisophy, in group that values difference in philisophy. Imagine That! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jaythree - That is an issue which I am sure a court would decide in our favor. The issue is do we want to go to the expense. Sujak Peter to Everyone: I agree with 5k to compensate David and Greg work Sam Wise to Everyone: I am not sure that a Judge, would rule in favor of persons that have resigned from the organization. Start a new Anti-Mainstream Philisophy org. Curt to Everyone: Sorry guys! Sujak Peter to Everyone: 5k to Greg and 5k to greg Sujak Peter to Everyone: sorz 5k to david and 5k to greg Jaythree to Everyone: I spent $35,000 on legal fees in a similar situation. It was a Pyhrric victory for me, not worth the pain. I was immature and jealous. I should have moved on to what I really wanted. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Greg's resignation is not a fact that would have bearing on the law. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Jaythree - great comment. Sam Wise to Everyone: Organization, have leaders that rise and fall through the ranks of the organization all of the time. If they want to become leaders again, let them rise through the ranks again. Putin, returned to leadership after being disposed! Your turn to try! Curt to Everyone: A lawsuit would be silly in this case. You can vot with your membership. If things can't be fixed, just leave. Curt to Everyone: vote* Joe Bova to Everyone: Curt, we have. Leo August to Everyone: Sam, are you aware that David's orginal copyright of his web was seized under threat of lawsuit? Your remarks are disturbingly disrespectful to this anonymous supporter. Curt to Everyone: I agree with what Greg just said. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Introduce impeachment into bylaws Sam Wise to Everyone: Leo, I am on your side. Does David own the NPA for copyright? Curt to Everyone: maximum 5 step plan, easily stated and understood. rkiehn to Everyone: In all cases the older presentations of NPA should not be lost. Leo August to Everyone: Leo, David wrote the code, and is author, with copyright for life until assigned. The science papers are not his ownership. The server code and the data-driven web-site are David's creation, from scratch. Leo August to Everyone: Being paid for formating and data entry on a system designed to feed open-source papers, does not mean a thing in relation to ownership of the algorithms written to generically feed blocks of characters. Sam Wise to Everyone: Leo, that is why the new board is building a new website. All of David's code belongs to him. All David has to do is to attach a new name to his site "Anti-Mainstream Philisophy" Jim Newburn to Everyone: iI'll have to call in Leo August to Everyone: Expectations are low. Curt to Everyone: I gave a set of guidelines to John Chappel once: Mathematically consistent, etc. Sam Wise to Everyone: Greg's claim's other's theorise as his own! Therefore, other follow their leaders. Curt to Everyone: I can probably find that in my archives Sam Wise to Everyone: I have also heard in emails that Greg, has prevented others from using NPA fuze tools? Sam Wise to Everyone: Jim, you are right. Power corrupts absolutely! Franklin Hu to Everyone: The problem is that a large majority of the membership is in disagreement with the current board, that is why there is a problem. Franklin Hu to Everyone: If the membership was in agreement with the board, elections and members rights would not be as relevant. Sam Wise to Everyone: Franklin, which board? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Greg is one who knows and credits what the members views on various scientific issues. I am impressed with how much members use and credit the work of others members. Are there examples of plagarism? I have seen none. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, I have seen plenty! Franklin Hu to Everyone: The current NPA board does not appear to have the support of the general membership. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam - In the journals or on line? Sam Wise to Everyone: Franklin, you mean our Anti-Mainstream membership? Franklin Hu to Everyone: Who else would be the membership - those who responded to the survey. Joe Bova to Everyone: This is good conversation between Jim and Greg. Dialog is paramount in resolving all conflicts. The goal should be win - win Curt to Everyone: Agreed joe Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, printed works, emails, and websites. Paulina to Everyone: The dues rates for different types of members were discussed. Joe Bova to Everyone: Jim- Ithought I saw a tiered membership Paulina to Everyone: Bill Lucas did confirm that separate dues rates for members was discussed. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Paulina - I agree. There was a message on the website with 2 levels of membership and the "professional" level was something like $100. Sam Wise to Everyone: Until, Springer, and Newburn, came onboard, David and Greg, were building the NPA as their personal organization. They should complete their goal, by starting a new "Anti-Mainstream" organization. Joe Bova to Everyone: That letter sound like at threat Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Everything is on the website www.worldnpa.org for those who care to fact-check Paulina to Everyone: That is changing dues, drastically. Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam, I disagree. Others have offered to help and have never been denied the opportunity. Plus, that Greg recoginzed the need for better orgination, that means he was not interested in being in control Sam Wise to Everyone: Joe, actions speak louder than words. Joe Bova to Everyone: Can this be published on BOTH website??? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Greg's need for control hasalways been the big show-stopper. All this about "power to the people" is smoke and mirrors. It's avout Dave's desie to use the NPA to showcase his multimillion dollar technology Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: http://worldnpa.org Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: sorry, I mean Dave's need for g=control Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam, yes. Greg's action was to recruit Barry and Jim to become part of the organizational structur Sam Wise to Everyone: Sam, that is correct! Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: it's al about the website, therest is trivial. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: I can tell you all about the website if you want Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: THe poll was sent to over 1500 people, the majority are not NPA members, whih is strange Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam and Sam - May I say that you are deluded? David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, it was sent to almost 2000 and haveing 10% answer is actually higher than normal. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: the questions are framed as non-neutral. it's a poor survey,looks like soviet era propaganda Miles Osmaston to Everyone: Jim Should realize that the convener of any conference session has to decide what contributions to include to create a session with the intended form as advertized that contributions were invited. Non-acceptance is a hazard for every sumbission. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Why are non-members being polled? David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, really, soviet? David de Hilster to Everyone: Everyone who showed interest by signing up for the newsletter had input. David de Hilster to Everyone: If it were members, the numbers would have reflected the same. David de Hilster to Everyone: These are non-points. David de Hilster to Everyone: Does the current board care about its members, listen to them, and address them? David de Hilster to Everyone: Tim Cook of Apple listens to his shareholders. David de Hilster to Everyone: That is the only issue. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: redareship of emails from everyon has dropped due to the midslinging Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: muslinging David de Hilster to Everyone: Our surveys simple show the facts. Sam Wise to Everyone: I think that most people have dropped off, because most of the vocal members are "Anti-Relativity". Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: We'reoperatng how most non-profits operate David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, we are growing, so where is this "dropping off" David de Hilster to Everyone: lets keep to the issue and no makeup stuff as you go. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Falaki - We are not primarily a non-profit. Sam Wise to Everyone: And the leaders at the time are really supportive of Anti-Relativity science, and this is why only those that are "Anti-Mainstream" have remained. David de Hilster to Everyone: NPA = Membership Organization Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: There re n sharelholders David de Hilster to Everyone: Simple David de Hilster to Everyone: The current board does not subscribe to that. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: that is incorrect Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Wise - I agree that the anti-relativists may be driving out the relativists which is unfortunate. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, say that again, I don't think that they heard you! Jim Newburn to Everyone: I'll call Greg Volk to Everyone: David, can you please reload the survey? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Falaki - That is the primary problem. We are not primarily a non-profit. That is changing the nature of the organization. We are more like a corporation with stockholders. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Allt thise questions are on on the website worldnpa.org. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Ful transparency on the website, do your fact checking Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: raising dues was never discussed Paulina to Everyone: Raising dues was discussed. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: That is incorrect. It was never discussed. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Only thing discussed was to expand waiving of dues Paulina to Everyone: It was discussed, in terms of raising dues for some members to become premium, based on the preferences of the board. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: no, that is incorrect. I was there and you were not. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: THe only thing that was discussed is to encourage free regisered users to beome paid members at 35/50 per year Paulina to Everyone: I asked Bill Lucas, and he affirmed that this was discussed. Sam Wise to Everyone: When, others came in, they saw that there were Draconian actions taking place behind the scenes. All in the name of Physics Dissidence. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: That is incorrect. and you can just visit ou website and take the time to read and chacthefacts Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: check the facts on http://worldnpa.org, full transparency there Paulina to Everyone: You can just look at the chat. It is in writing at the open meeting. Paulina to Everyone: My microphone malfunctioned. James Rose to Everyone: It is NOT appropriate to restrict the open exploratrory nature of the organization to any one preferrred Model of the structure, nature or behavior version of the universe. Open Code - 'open access to information and ideas' is the best protocol for science. Using the commercial model that restricts access to information by the ability of a person to purchase access at extraordinary costs is anti-thetical to a thriving openScience. That a board has sole 'peer-review' authority - with themselves un-vetted for knowledge base in any fields - is unconscionable. This all sounds like the current board has hi-jacked the NPA to promote their personal science biases and to enforce 'poll-taxes' to exclude real dissenters and the possibility for alternative viable new ideas. Paulina to Everyone: May I make a statement please, to be read aloud. Sam Wise to Everyone: James, that i intrepreted, only Greg and David running the NPA will allow my "Anti-Mainstream" science papers. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Look at the guidance for published works and tell me where it says there is preretial theories: http://worldnpa.org/about/governance-documents/ Bent Nielsen to Everyone: I fully endorse that wiew, Rose Jim Newburn to Everyone: worldnpa.org does work and quite well Paulina to Everyone: The reason the motion of no confidence should go forward is not complex. The current board did not reimberse Dave and Greg. They then used litigation to seize both websites. This is not the leadership needed for the NPA. Leo August to Everyone: And worldnpa.org right now cites the old web site as full of spam and shut down Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: An agreement was made to exchange money for Dave transferring the website. He was supposed to do it in December and never did Sam Wise to Everyone: Paulina, it is about more than money. Money is just the side issue! Jim Newburn to Everyone: Greg was paid and the checks cleared-I'm Treasurer Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The real issue is Dave's insistence on controlling the website Paulina to Everyone: When was Greg reimbursed? Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jim - How about a treasurer's report? Sam Wise to Everyone: Jim, that I believe, Greg is not complainng about not being paid, only David is complainng. Jim Newburn to Everyone: a few days after he submitted invoice Paulina to Everyone: /That was after the Paulina to Everyone: petition. Jim Newburn to Everyone: no- well prior Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: my mic isunmuted James Rose to Everyone: [technical] - I do not see a 'flag' opiton on my Fuze screen. help please. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: ok let eosmoene else go firt Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: while I fix my mic David de Hilster to Everyone: My wife going through our suit cases which is where we are living out of right now! Jim Newburn to Everyone: I'm leaving meeting for a few min. I'll reset flag in a few minutes Sam Wise to Everyone: David, I lost my job, lost my wife, and was forced to move in with my aging parents. David is this the problem of the NPA? David de Hilster to Everyone: No true. Paulina to Everyone: That is an ad hom which cannot be verified. David de Hilster to Everyone: Sam, you appologized to me publically in front of Greg that your statement was wrong. Leo August to Everyone: I identify Sam Falaki2, anonymously and rudely, as a sociopath and really totally unaware of what he has done. David de Hilster to Everyone: Now you are saying something different. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: The new website looks great! A new design was sorely needed. David de Hilster to Everyone: I have witnesses. David de Hilster to Everyone: So, plesae tell the truth. David de Hilster to Everyone: THat was public knowledge. Paulina to Everyone: The fact is that the two websites were taken using letigious actions, which the membership does not support. David de Hilster to Everyone: This is a very funny view of things Sam. Leo August to Everyone: Two web sites was when a non-programmer advising the take-over team got in over his head ---totally Sam Wise to Everyone: Most of the world science databse, is filled with works not submited by the scientists themselves, but Greg, was inserting them, without their permission. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lots of smoke and mirrors everywhere! Leo August to Everyone: Sam Wise: because nobody else would help Greg put the boxes and boxes of documents from the orginal founders of years... be gentle and spoken less derisevely, please. Sam Wise to Everyone: Leo, you mean stop, breaking the mirrors. Joe Bova to Everyone: The issue is that the board does not seem to care what the membership wants Miguel Kovac to Everyone: Good morning. One advice to be applied for the long time in the future. There are passed experiences which are worthwhile to be studied, for example the twelve concepts for world services of anonymous organizations, in the way that the services are inherited to the collective community. Sam Wise to Everyone: Bova, the board does not seem to care with the "Anti-Relativist" membership wants. This is not all of the membership. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: I have no reason to not tell thetruth Joe Bova to Everyone: Sam Wise, if the members want something different, then were are their votes? Paulina to Everyone: The NPA wanted to make the website useful to younger people, in order to introduce them to alternative scientific theories. Leo August to Everyone: Sam F. You are portrayed by your presentation as a young-male narcissist that is unable to live outside a denial trip that is projected rather than your incompetance in the social world that scares you to support take-over opportunities Paulina to Everyone: Also, Dave made opportunities available for members to publish. Sam Wise to Everyone: Only the Ant-Relativity members, fill out the surveys and voice their opinions. Paulina to Everyone: This is important in science. Jim Newburn to Everyone: Sam is correct. Registration was difficult.I told many people (I was /conf Coordinator) to show up and pay at conf. about 15 -18 people did so. I had great resistance from deHilster on registration and promotion of conf. Attendance was in low fifties-not 80 Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: This is just awesome to have Jim Newburn and Sam Falaki in the conversation! We don't have to resolve aything right now (although it would be nice to have some sort of agreement to sme next steps - like an election at the end of August), but having a public dialog going really helps. Great education for me. Sam Wise to Everyone: Their was a power grab, but it was grabbed back by the new board. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Wise - Since Relativity is solid mainstream, it makes sense that anti-Relativity would be where dissidents are at. None the less, I think that we should encourage and respect the Relativists. Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2: as you grow older, with luck, you will reckognize that you post business ethics and practice on 'TACKY TALK' which comes to mind as your ponder your ploy. Jim Newburn to Everyone: There were many people who had trouble with registration!! Hans Strupat to Everyone: Jim, I am old and I had NO problem registering for the 2013 conference. Leo August to Everyone: Sam F. ---TACKY TALK-- WAS WHAT BROUGHT DOWN THE MEMBERSHIP Paulina to Everyone: Regarding Sam Wise, I do not think any one would agree to call this community "Anti-Mainstream." Sam Wise to Everyone: This is very simple. Make the Worldsci.org a new organization, with Anti-Relativity viewpoints highlighted. Sam Wise to Everyone: And make it a new organization, for the Anti-Relativits Sam Wise to Everyone: Greg is not that emotional, because, he got his money. Jim Newburn to Everyone: I've never suggested anything about relativity in NPA Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Guidelines for science are published on the website Sam Wise to Everyone: Jim, should the NPA be mainly Anti-Relativity. Sam Wise to Everyone: ? Jim Newburn to Everyone: I can talk now Paulina to Everyone: Using scientific consensus to keep the board and membership closed is not following the guidelines which were published. Joe Bova to Everyone: The comments about relativity are interesting, because I can recall listenting to at least one presenter on a Saturday conference, the supported the theory of relativity francis to Everyone: I would like to add that in 2008 Iwas 46 and it was the first video conference for he NPA and that too from India to New Mexico-cheers to that Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Jim - Relativity vs Anti- Relativity is not a problem of the present Board. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Sam Wise - It is very important for me to see PRO-Relativity papers and ideas in the NPA. It is more important that te NPA NOT become a "small-world" restricted viewpoint/religion of science, and that we get all viewpoints. I don't think I'm alone with that viewpoint. Phil Bouchard to Everyone: We should hear Jim before the end Leo August to Everyone: Sam F. has not a clue what his derision entails... mostly narcissism and ploy over and again. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Joe - I think that may have been Robert Kemp. Sam Wise to Everyone: Lou, believe it or not this is a big problem with the NPA. When the leaders push this view, all of their followers will be similar. Sujak Peter to Everyone: In 1920 the most respected physics of world W.Vien, P. Lenard, Sommerfeld, Nernst, Weyland, Debye, Rubens based Union of German Natural Scientists and organized putsch at konference in Nauhaim congress v 1920. Content of putsch was "Einstein as plagiarist; anyone who supports relativity theory is a propagandist; the theory itself as Dadaist (this word was actually uttered!)." Leo August to Everyone: Follow the money ---> Sam Falaki2 doing the present work for free? Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2: you are trending into socio-manic babble, where points of persuasion are lewd. Paulina to Everyone: They said also that they had to teach the members of the NPA about scientific standards. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Sam Wise - I agree that it is an issue to be addressed. Sam Wise to Everyone: This is the viewpoint of the organization promoted by David and Greg: "Content of putsch was "Einstein as plagiarist; anyone who supports relativity theory is a propagandist; the theory itself as Dadaist (this word was actually uttered!)." Paulina to Everyone: Suing the builders and then saying that they had no scientific standards both show that a vote of no confidence must go forward. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: You're doig a good jobGreg, thanks for allowing me to speak Sam Wise to Everyone: Paulina, the builders, do not have any scientific standards. This is why a new NPA is needed. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I totally agree Sam Paulina to Everyone: Thank you. I prefer clarity to agreement. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: I also totally disagree. That is the whole point of the NPA is to allow various views to come forward. H Ricker to Everyone: Not a member driven organization????? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Leo, can you please use reason and civility? We're supposed to begrownups. Paulina to Everyone: ATTN: Sam says: "Paulina, the builders, do not have any scientific standards. This is why a new NPA is needed." Sam Wise to Everyone: Nick: Who's Who of Anti-Relativity responded only! Roger Tobie to Everyone: I had thought it was a member driven organization. Apparently I was mistaken. Joe Bova to Everyone: IF this is not a member driven group, then i want my membership dues. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I agree. The old NPA doesn't have any basic epistemological standards and that's its #1 problem. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I really look forward to what the new board is doing. David de Hilster to Everyone: Answer the question Sam Wise to Everyone: Jonathan, this I agree with totaly. Please say that again, I don't think that those that should hear, have heard you. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: "Higher standards" is a nice term, but perhaps it more important to see the ideas of those who are developing concepts that may not work out in the end, but still stimulate thinking, even if the individuals are amateurs who may lack the rigour and background of "professional scientists", and who don't have a strong mathematical or theoretical basis in a conventional sense. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The albuquerque had only 2-3 people interested inpresenting. THe conference for late november is filling up fast. This indicates that we are doing theright thing on the current board. David de Hilster to Everyone: Answer the question Paulina to Everyone: These men issued letters of legal action to the people who developed the NPA. Then they claimed that the standards and scientific standards needed to be decided by themselves. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Agreed, Bill Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Barry and Dave should not resign due to cyber-bullying. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: sorry, Barry and Jim Jonathan Powers to Everyone: Bill Howell, your description fits myself to a tee. Having a basic standard of reason and logic does not exclude those people. Sam Wise to Everyone: These individuals should not be leaders of a science organization that does not "even if the individuals are amateurs who may lack the rigour and background of "professional scientists", and who don't have a strong mathematical or theoretical basis in a conventional sense." Paulina to Everyone: Also, the board was enlarged only after the meeting which said that the board was not taking new members. So that was also the result of criticism. Leo August to Everyone: Leave your trite and underinformed judgements to yourself, Sam Falaki2... what side of the tracks were you raised on, man? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Thanks Leo, for your constructive remarks Lou LaFollette to Everyone: It sounds like we have two visions of what the NPA is all about and maybe a split is appropriate. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: WE have a great turnot for theconference Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I was shocked that Greg and David tried to organize a conference under the NPA name when they had no authority to do so. The new board was right to take legal action. Paulina to Everyone: They took the money and the two websites by legal force, and then said that no one was qualified to criticise scientific theories. Leo August to Everyone: Paulina, they took it "by threat of legal action" tacticts intending a take-over all the while Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I wish Greg and David would just start another organization. According to them, they would have the vast majority of the NPA membership with them right off the bat Paulina to Everyone: Most dissident scientists DO NOT have degrees or careers in their area of interest! Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Dave, it will be amatter of time before your site gets taken down by hackers again. It's the reason we had to do the switchover Leo August to Everyone: Interpreting David: the take-over board took the word of a consultant (Sam Falaki2) as proof they were seeking of David's incompetance, and at the advise of a consultant completely unaware of the custome software archeture, or aware that he was that much in-over-his-head. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: The agreement wasmade, but Dave failed to fullfil his part when I found out about the dependency on worldsci Joe Bova to Everyone: I did Paulina to Everyone: If Barry and Jim do beleive they are uniquely qualified to judge scientific work, then they should go to another site. But no one would join it. Leo August to Everyone: Sam... back off your intent to destroy!!! David had been threatened to release his very own copyright under idiotic threats only you (ONLY YOU) choose to support with any validity. Are you now being paid to do the work David provided (server code)? Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I never paid dues because I didn't want to support an organization with no basic standards of logic. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I did attend two conferences, though. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Paulina: incorrect statement. THe science comittee is composed of Cynthia Whitny, Martin Kokus and Bill Lucas. Barry, Jim and I jave nothing to say about the scientific standards Paulina to Everyone: That is not what they have communicated in recent emails. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Leo: I receive no money for the website. Just visit the website and read through it for your ownfact-checking Paulina to Everyone: They said that they were needed at the NPA to show the members what the scientific method was. And if you want a group Duncan Shaw to Everyone: The phone line is not receiving my call. Paulina to Everyone: That tells you what the scientific method is, then join one. Duncan Shaw to Everyone: May I type my thoughts? Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: WE hired a contractor for the website but he didn't finish the job, I had to jump in and finish (as an unpaid volunteer) Leo August to Everyone: (and the unpaid volunteer commenced to badmouth all the stuff he didn't understand) JIM N to Everyone: dialing Paulina to Everyone: But the scientific method and the development of ideas had excellent perameters as seen David de Hilster to Everyone: duncan, what is your phone number? David de Hilster to Everyone: I can call? Paulina to Everyone: on the WSD site. Joe Bova to Everyone: I would NOT change my response!!! Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2: perhaps you can run your own survey. Will you survey questions you compose? Paulina to Everyone: Karl Popper said that rational criticism is the only way out of stuck paradigms. Paulina to Everyone: And rational criticism is not coming from self-styled experts. Paulina to Everyone: The NPA provided that platform. Joe Bova to Everyone: The election needs to happen now. Joe Bova to Everyone: I have an email from Barry clearly stating that only the board can elect members. If this has changed, we need to know now. Sujak Peter to Everyone: Yes the election needs to happen now Paulina to Everyone: Go join a group that has experts tell you what is and is not science. I suggest you start with Academia. Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Let's have an election at the end of August! Leo August to Everyone: "You guys making noise" is a wholish unholy remark from the under-qualified consultant now being paid to duplicate what he cannot undertand that was performed by Dave de Hilster. Duncan Shaw to Everyone: We are failing to see the elephant in the room. The elephant is that the membership has rejected Springer and Newburn -- now and last January. The NPA is in danger of falling apart while they cling to their post. We can debate details, but we cannot progress while Springer and Newburn cling to power. The solution is simple. The resignations the members call for, put Volk and one other compatible with Volk, and leave it to the then board to sort out the conflicts, including how future directors should be elected. Joe Bova to Everyone: Allegations are irrelevant. This is the members decision. Paulina to Everyone: Very successful examples of dissident, citizen science include Anthony Watts and all scientists working on cold fusion. Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2 is a board of the take-over that supported legal threats against de Hilster, rather than pay de Hilster for hours of transcription Leo August to Everyone: Falaki2 remarks, "We don't play that game." Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Sam Falaki - Overwhelming member demands can certainly be seen by bullying, I imagine that every pokitician feels that sometimes. That's the way it maybe should be. Joe Bova to Everyone: The real (de Hilster) website functions well and I can find everything Jonathan Powers to Everyone: I've heard nothing but emotional pleadings from Greg and David for the last few months, since I became aware of this conflict. They other side has been very rational. Phil Bouchard to Everyone: I'm with you Dave and Greg and I can't wait to present my experiment Leo August to Everyone: nausious waves of change Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Let's have a follow-up webcast in two weeks, with potential candidates presenting an action plan/vision for an end-of-August election. Joe Bova to Everyone: WE ARE THE NPA!!!!! Duncan Shaw to Everyone: Greg: Please read out my comments. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: It's all about the control of the website, to preerve groupum multimillion dollar technology Joe Bova to Everyone: I'm sorry, getting frustrated. Sam has NO clue. Leo August to Everyone: Sam Falaki2, I think you are full of yourself, and of obvious to those that see you that you are a noise gentlepeople overlook. Jonathan Powers to Everyone: What's so great about this groupum tech? Isn't it just a database of papers? Paulina to Everyone: Greg and Dave provided a good, open structure for the community, and they provided very fair and objective standards for works accepted and not accepted. Paulina to Everyone: Archived standards: Paulina to Everyone: **Although we publish any serious work in science including those that are not accepted by the mainstream, we do have guidelines for content acceptance. Database founders David de Hilster and Greg Volk present their guidelines for inclusion in World Science Datebase.What is acceptable: Serious scientific work that are not accepted by mainstream publications. All topics of scientific interest, including those related to scientific ethics All work that demonstrate a serious scientific rigor and effort. Work that espouses a particular worldview provided that their primary focus is with questions of science. Authors can declare their beliefs in their profile as points of biographical interest, but not as a sounding board for controversial doctrines not based on science. What is not acceptable: Work that do not follow a serious scientific methodology. Work that are more speculation than science. Work whose primary intent is to make statements related to politics, religion, or other controversial issues. Roger Tobie to Everyone: It looks to me as if you are going to have to forn a new organization. Sam Falaki2 to Everyone: Thank you Greg Howell, Bill - Canada to Everyone: Thanks Greg and David enddoc