/home/bill/Projects/NPA - physics/140419 NPA Roger Anderton - Correct way to understand Einsteins relativity.txt http://fuze.me/23619491 The correct way is to think of it in terms of mathematical modelling where start from simplest mathematical model and update whenever required. Problems are: not everyone thinks of Einstein's relativity in this way, and Einstein was unclear to many issues related to his relativity theories. But there are people who think of Einstein's relativity (whether implicitly or explicitly) in terms of mathematical modelling and for those people they can get Einstein's relativity to work adequately. 140421 NPA Roger Anderton - Correct way slide, summary.png Roger Anderton has a new book out on Boscovitch /home/bill/Projects/NPA - physics/140419 NPA Roger Anderton - Correct way slide 171.txt co-author Dragoslav ?Stoiljkovich? - prof in Serbia 140420 NPA Roger Anderton - Correct way slide, Boskovitch.png ***************************** Howell's comments (my written notes of verbal exchange): Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: peple, we have been through this before. Earth is not inertial motion, that is why you have to use EIC coordinates Howell, Bill - Alberta to Jerry Hynecek: inertial or accelerating/ rotational? Jerry Hynecek to Howell, Bill - Alberta: Bill, the centrifugal force of rotation cancells the SR effects. See my paper:http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Essays/View/1498 Howell, Bill - Alberta to Al Schrader: Have you looked at Oliver Manuel's "neutron repulsiion" to explain stars and basic particle physics? Lucas - Is your next book coming out this summer? (stong / weak force?) Anderton - Symmetry-breaking, reminds me of spin glass and net magnetic field Howell, Bill - Alberta to Roger Anderton: Richter/ ANderton - sounds like Lucas' point about looking for another theory Anderton - ifyou take a few bricks out of Relativity, the whole thing falls apart, but on't tke it all to the landfill Statement "GPS is wrong" - confusion over what basis, and what interpretation? **************************** Others comments that caught my eye Bill Lucas - hasn't study Boscovich much, "existential philosophy" develops mathematical models, reference frames used - relativity started with separation of two bodies with relative velocities, GR to include acceleration, All of these are idealisations - nuclear physics must also take into account radiation and radiation reaction - must take into account thrid derivative (after acceleration). Newton empiricisms - axioms, Boskovich worked like that? Must use compete set of laws, Maxwell failed to do that, Poincare meta-theory - said electrodynamics was incomplete. Will be interesting to see what's in Anderton book on Boscovich Volk to Anderton - Would be good to list Einstein's changes in thinking. Richter - I have written such a paper. Volk - can you post a quick list? Anderton - confusing as people quote Einstein, but Einstein really say what the interpretors say? Richter - People who only read 1905 miss out the Minkowski part. I prefer to call it Lorentz-Poincare-Einstein-Minkowski theory ?Kemp or Percival? - www.TwiParadox.net Taking out preferred frame was a radicl change by Einstein Our PAL Asia - ?Newtonian physics deals with near-speed-of-light? Anderton - ?I didn't understand, said ?yes?? Took me a long time to fin Boscoich, my own unified theory? My attention is now on Boscovich, he should be taught in physics. Our PAL Asia - What advice do you have for people that want to take Einstein to the landfill? Anderton - Look at Boscovich, not Einstein Richter - Are the mathematical mistakes enough to destroy the theory? I believe so. Anderton - I agree with you. Richter - What we have now with Relativity has too many math mistakes Anderton - how far do you want to go to correct mistake. Paulina West - what does Boscovich say about gravity? Anderton - Newton, attractive only. Boscovich used force curve, Newton worked well away from force oscillations. ?Kemp? - Einstein's theory works with measurements in all physics labs Volk - that is correct Kemp - Anderton must relate data to criticisms, and not just provide opinion. To me, arguing Einstein's special relativity is a waste of time - when NO-ONE has invalidated it. General Relativity - can argue, but requires mathematical understanding. Swchartzchild - ONLY one who really successfully criticised GR. closest, corrected GR as he found error, but Schwrtschild theory didn't really solve this. If you approach it from philosophy, you can dream up any physics you want. ?not Michelson? brought up "preferred frame" - wasn't use by Einstein or in his day. Baxter - Sagnac experiment. Einstein didn't understand difference between relative speed of light and the speed of light Anderton summary - I wanted to emphasize the mathematical modelling proces of modern physics. Education systems adds other things onto relativity. Kemp - ?Brian? Green theory regarding closing speed >speed of light Anderton - Green's claims aren't precisely same as Einstein Kemp - mainstream physics theories must be validated by others Anderton - overlooked problem is the interpretation of hte experiments. Lorentz said that Einstein's theory was a philosophical interpretation. Kemp - Russians re-interpreting don't get mass increase **************************** Full chat stream Nick Percival2 to Everyone: This is the 7th presentation on the "correct" way to interpret SR - all different! The only thing in common is they see problems in the way other people interpret SR. Al Schrader to Everyone: Einstein ran out of time. He was still working on Rel when he passed on. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Aha he forgot to use the time delation. Al Schrader to Everyone: Was tobacco delation Al Schrader to Everyone: My family is from the same town as Einstein, but I don't do things his way. Nick Percival2 to Everyone: AE "copied" a lot from Lorentz. The equations of SR look like LR equations but the two theories are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. SR gives the "right" answers for two reasons answer 1) the equations are used with the LR interpretation 2) since the equations are very similar they will give the right answer for certain situations. Nick Percival2 to Everyone: The problem is SR yields the concept of "time dilation' whereas the physical reality is "clock retardation" is very different. So that's one problem of trying to think of SR as "just" math modeling. Franklin Hu to Everyone: I think it is really a problem with "interpretation" of clock dialation with time dialation. Confused people think it is time that is actually changing, but I don't think relativity or what Einstein actually wrote, means that. Al Schrader to Everyone: 1905 is a hundred and nine years ago Nick Percival2 to Everyone: GPS data seems to confirm LR while contradicting SR so one just needs to take SR to the landfill. Jaythree to Everyone: The age-old problem in science: top down or bottom up. Evolution vs Intelligent design. Calculus vs decomposition. In the end Nature will be served...she may not cooperate with neat top down models. And then there's the mystical phenomena of emergent properties. Franklin Hu to Everyone: I don't think people have actually read the 1905 paper, if you did, you would see the word "stationary" in reference to frames 58 times. Franklin Hu to Everyone: That stationary frame is the preferred theory. Nick Percival2 to Everyone: The assertion that one can get LR by adding a preferred frame to LR is like saying one can transform a rhino into an elephant by adding a trunk. Anton Vrba to Everyone: to Nick Percival: GPS contradicts SR, GPS uses a earth centric reference frame whereas SR has no favoured refeence frame Nick Percival2 to Everyone: Anton, yes I agree Al Schrader to Everyone: We all make mistakes Nick Percival2 to Everyone: Anton, that's what I said Anton Vrba to Everyone: Nick, but LR does not work either Franklin Hu to Everyone: What Al Schrader to Everyone: Penecillin was discovered when a lab tech left a petri dish of gell out by mistake Franklin Hu to Everyone: What is wrong with LR - seems to work perfectly to me. Nick Percival2 to Everyone: Ron Hatch (26+ GPS patents) and other GPS engineers say GPS agrees with LR Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: peple, we have been through this before. Earth is not inertial motion, that is why you have to use EIC coordinates Franklin Hu to Everyone: Yes, the 1905 definitely has the idea of a "stationary" or preferred starting frame. "Stationary" is use 58 times in the 1905 paper. Howell, Bill - Alberta to Jerry Hynecek: inertial or accelerating/ rotational? Al Schrader to Everyone: Nobody can get Hydrogen atoms to cold fuse including me, so I went back to the H device to see how it works, but Hydrogen doesn't fuse in the atomic devices Al Schrader to Everyone: If you apply extreme pressure and heat to Hydrogen atoms, they come appart, not fuse. Al Schrader to Everyone: The Sun's heat and light is from crushing not fusing. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Where is the proof of these statements. This is just opinion I quess! Franklin Hu to Everyone: I can back up my statements that you can count the presnece of the word "stationary" 58 times in the 1905 paper - fact not opinion. Jerry Hynecek to Howell, Bill - Alberta: Bill, the centrifugal force of rotation cancells the SR effects. See my paper:http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Essays/View/1498 Robert Kemp to Everyone: Einstein does use the Stationary; So What? Al Schrader to Everyone: Einstein offered theories, not conclusions Glenn Baxter to Everyone: FUZE phone number is 201 479 4595 meeting number 24247231 Franklin Hu to Everyone: The main contention is whether Einstein SR uses a preferred frame, so it is a very big deal if the evidence shows he does. Howell, Bill - Alberta to Al Schrader: Have you looked at Oliver Manuel's "neutron repulsiion" to explain stars and basic particle physics? Jaythree to Everyone: Scientific method IS the continulal changing of minds. Al Schrader to Everyone: No sorry I did the work in my lab - I have hands-on results Franklin Hu to Everyone: The people who think SR is wrong claim that SR has no preferred wrong. Robert Kemp to Everyone: The word preferred is a common word in physics community at the time. A prefered framed does not have to be the same as a stationary frame! Howell, Bill - Alberta to Jerry Hynecek: Thanks, Jerry - I'll check this later. Franklin Hu to Everyone: If the frame is stationary, it is preferred as everthing else is measured relative to it. It is the same. Einstein uses the word "stationary". Robert Kemp to Everyone: In your room, the air that you are breathing is considered a stationary frame, it is not a prefered frame! Jerry Hynecek to Howell, Bill - Alberta: Bill, send me e-mail I will send you a better paper on this. People refer to GPS as a proof that SRT dos not work. This is not correct argument. Jaythree to Everyone: Einstein followed scientific method: he described experiments that would falsify his theories. Consider the experiment technology available in those days. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Actually, it is a preferred frame, why not. If I were to measure my velocity, it would be relative to that frame and not any other frame like the Earth rotation frame. Howell, Bill - Alberta to Jerry Hynecek: Bill@BillHowell.ca Robert Kemp to Everyone: You just stated it. let your minde accept it; Earth rotation frame Robert Kemp to Everyone: What about the rotation of the earth about the sun. What about the sun in the galaxy? Cornelis Verhey to Everyone: Frankllin by my definition the prefered or stationary frame would be the frame in which your measurement intraments and standards are located? Franklin Hu to Everyone: You can make the earth rotation frame your preferred frame. Pick a frame, any frame, any frame will do, just pick one. Al Schrader to Everyone: In 2007 I heard about a UFO sighting. I went there and looked around. Found nothing Robert Kemp to Everyone: So how is the stationary air in your room prefered? Franklin Hu to Everyone: I prefer it. Al Schrader to Everyone: A few months later this thing showed up hovering over my house, broad daylight Robert Kemp to Everyone: Franklin, you are wrong again and again. Al Schrader to Everyone: I've seen an actual faster than light vehicle Al Schrader to Everyone: It's not a theory Franklin Hu to Everyone: OK, then who picks what is preferred, saying I am wrong is not an argument. Robert Kemp to Everyone: You can make up your own physics, that is up to you, but your followers will be one! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Sticks and stones may break may bones, but your non-arguments will never hurt me. You're not giving me an logical arguments. Franklin Hu to Everyone: You are not answering my questions. Robert Kemp to Everyone: All of objects in space are at rest or is moving relative to something else. Robert Kemp to Everyone: I don't do anything illogical. I study physics properly. My spelling is horrible! Franklin Hu to Everyone: The question here is whether there is a preferred frame. That is any inertial frame that you select as a starting point. That is how the 1905 paper starts out. Robert Kemp to Everyone: The earth is a stationary frame, just like the air in your room, is a stationary frame. Franklin Hu to Everyone: For strict geocentrists, yes. Franklin Hu to Everyone: I personally don't belive that. Al Schrader to Everyone: If you put a mirror half a light year out into space, you can see a year into the past Robert Kemp to Everyone: The solar system is a stationary frame, the CMB is a stationary frame! Robert Kemp to Everyone: The universe is a stationary frame. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Yes, I wold agree CMB forms a stationary frame. Strictly speaking, I think the frame formed by the aether medium is the preferred stationary frame. Franklin Hu to Everyone: You can still pick any other inertial frame which is not absolutely station and SR still works. Nick Percival2 to Everyone: For the Twin Paradox and for the general assertion that one "adds a preferred frame to SR", what actually is happening is that one is making a radical pardigm change from the SR paradigm back to the very, every differnt paradigm and model of LR. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Einstein already accomplised getting around arguing with people about aether frame, by using Space-Time as a medium. This is proper! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Space time is not a medium, it is a little green fairy. Jerry Hynecek to Howell, Bill - Alberta: Bill, paper was sent. Please let me knwo when you get it. Jerry. Al Schrader to Everyone: Newton and Darwin are buried in the same graveyard Robert Kemp to Everyone: Einstein accomplishes this by not calling it a preferred frame. Al Schrader to Everyone: in a churchyard in England Franklin Hu to Everyone: He calls it a stationary frame which is what it means in LR. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Lorentz also used stationary frame, and it is the Space-time frame. Franklin Hu to Everyone: This is the original 1905 1st postulate: Any ray of light moves in the “stationary” system of co-ordinates with the determined velocity c, whether the ray be emitted by a stationary or by a moving body. Al Schrader to Everyone: I read about everybody, but it all changes when you go into the lab and most of it doesn't work and other things not even mentioned present themselves Franklin Hu to Everyone: The quotations around "stationary" is what Einstein wrote as a means of emphasizing this word, it is not a mistake or misinterpretation. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Franklin, that is true, what you wrote. Einstein is a genius, because he is protecting his theory from idiots arguing with him Robert Kemp to Everyone: It is clear that Einstein is using Stationary to keep you from being an idiot1 Robert Kemp to Everyone: Stationary is a concept in physics that goes back, to Galileo. Research that! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Huh, the question here is whether Einstein was really using LR with a stationary preferred frame. I think he does. Al Schrader to Everyone: Archimedes H Ricker to Everyone: Franklin, You are a novice at this. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Yeah, I haven't been brainwashed by the mainstream. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Nor have you studied properly! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Mainstream says SR says no preferred fame, find me something in Einstein's paper that actually says that. Franklin Hu to Everyone: You can't find anything like that. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Preferred frame is not a concept of Einstein, that is the problem. Franklin Hu to Everyone: That mainstream interpretation is something that is completely "made up" by the mainstream and is treated as fact by Harry. Al Schrader to Everyone: There are lots of great scientists through-out history Robert Kemp to Everyone: Preferred frame is something that originates with Albert Michelson! Franklin Hu to Everyone: By study properly, you mean get brainwashed by mainstream thinking and don't think or read for myself? H Ricker to Everyone: Franklin, You can say Einstein said such and such, but it is what the textbooks teach that is important, not what you think Einstein meant. Al Schrader to Everyone: They were wrong about Hydrogen fusion Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Why so many smart people say that SR is correct. Do you have an answer for that? Al Schrader to Everyone: It doesn't fuze into Helium Robert Kemp to Everyone: Jerry is that directed to Hu? Franklin Hu to Everyone: Yes, the textbooks teach SR is no preferred frame which appears to be completely false. That this is false is what is important and need to be brought out. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Einstein isn't wrong, it is the mainstream textbook interpretation is wrong. H Ricker to Everyone: Franklin, Are you saying the textbooks are teaching Einstein's theory as being wrong??? Robert Kemp to Everyone: Mainstream text books are written by you and me! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Yes, any textbook which is stating the first posutlate without using the word "stationary" are clearly fraudlulent. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Robert, you wish Robert Kemp to Everyone: The work of Einstein stopped when he died. We have his work to study from and writhe textbooks. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Isn't the first assumption of NPA dissidents are that the textbooks are filled with science dogma untruths? Robert Kemp to Everyone: Blame Michelson for the word preferred, and his work was invalidated! Franklin Hu to Everyone: You believe anything you read in a textbook??? Robert Kemp to Everyone: I create textbooks! Al Schrader to Everyone: Textbooks take a year to pdate - makes them obsolete Al Schrader to Everyone: update Franklin Hu to Everyone: All you can put down in textbooks is mainstream dogma - that doesn't make it correct. H Ricker to Everyone: The main point that Roger makes is that physics is math modeling. That allows them to avoid the issues of being good logic and correct math. They just continously update the bad theories and that process has no intelluctual justification other than it appears to work. This means there is no attempt to fix mistakes in thought in the foundations. They maintain the mistakes and just add updates to cover up the mistakes. Roger Tobie to Everyone: I love that phrase, "You think that they are thinking". Franklin Hu to Everyone: Harry, please let people finsh their sentences. Robert Kemp to Everyone: It supports modeling because it can be validated emphircally! Robert Kemp to Everyone: The math can be measued! That is modern physics! Robert Kemp to Everyone: And this started with Newton! That math can be measured! Robert Kemp to Everyone: I am wrong, this actually this started with Kepler! Al Schrader to Everyone: You can declare laws of physics but then you have to find the atomic source of the feature. Howell, Bill - Alberta to Bill Lucas: Is your next book coming out this summer? (stong / weak force?) Robert Kemp to Everyone: Lucas that is only true, if electromagnetism is merged with gravity theory. Which I am not aware of a good theory, yet. I will publish this later this year! Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Mr. Kemp: That would be Dr. Lucas. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Thanks idiot Baxter! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Any ray of light moves in the “stationary” system of co-ordinates with the determined velocity c, whether the ray be emitted by a stationary or by a moving body. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Franklin, that is true! Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Mr. Kemp: Not very professionual.. Robert Kemp to Everyone: And this is professional: Mr. Kemp: That would be Dr. Lucas. Al Schrader to Everyone: When you take this into the lab you find that photons have a orbiting particle Robert Kemp to Everyone: No! Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Also, that would be Mr. Baxter. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Prefered frame is not a concept of Einstein, it is a concept of Albert Michelson! Robert Kemp to Everyone: And the preferred frame of Albert Michelson was invalidated! Robert Kemp to Everyone: Einstein is proper to use the word Stationary frame. And then when pressed by others, he would say that Space-time is his stationary frame. Al Schrader to Everyone: The speed of the particle orbiting the photon it decides the "color" of the light Robert Kemp to Everyone: Nick, that is right about what a preferred frame, the what the Hu is using it is a frame that is unique with unique properties. Franklin Hu to Everyone: No, I read that you pick any "stationary" system of co-ordinates Al Schrader to Everyone: My family is from the same town in Germany as Einstein. I never discount Eintein. He called it as he saw it. Robert Kemp to Everyone: No one has complete ownerhip of a theory, because a theory must be validated by more than one physicists: Einstein/Minkowski - Einstein/Lorentz Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Good suggestion Greg! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Here is the 1920 statement: We advance a step farther in our generalisation when we express the tenet thus: If, relative to K, K' is a uniformly moving co-ordinate system devoid of rotation, then natural phenomena run their course with respect to K' according to exactly the same general laws as with respect to K. This statement is called the principle of relativity (in the restricted sense)." Franklin Hu to Everyone: Here we have a uniformily moving co-ordinate system Franklin Hu to Everyone: That is mentioned as K, then there is another co-ordinate system K' that is mentioned relative to that frame which appears to be a starting resting or preferred frame. Robert Kemp to Everyone: That is what relativity is!!!! Roger Tobie to Everyone: A succinct list is what Greg wants. Al Schrader to Everyone: twinparadox.net Franklin Hu to Everyone: Mainstream is saying all frames can be considered resting with respect to each with no preferred frame, that is wrong, you can only pick 1 starting preferred frame before doing any work. Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Mr. Kemp could author such a list. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Any one of those frames that you mentioned can be stationary or preferred as you are using it. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Yes, and the key is that you pick only ONE! Al Schrader to Everyone: I've design aerodynamic parafoils on paper I was certain would work perfectly and the thing wouldn't fly. You never really know anything until you try it. Robert Kemp to Everyone: That is right. Then from the other frame that you did not choose as preferred; also claims preference. Franklin Hu to Everyone: I don't think Einstein took out the preferred frame, I would agree with Harry, that additional mainstream thinking (minowski) took it out. Franklin Hu to Everyone: What is confusing is that we think that the mainstream SR is what Eienstein said. Robert Kemp to Everyone: You should say; I am confused about what is SR and what Einstein said. Franklin Hu to Everyone: Sure, that is my main point is that these appear to be completely contradictory for the layperson looking at this for the first time. Robert Kemp to Everyone: It is not for the layperson! Al Schrader to Everyone: Einstein offered theories, not laws or facts Howell, Bill - Alberta to Roger Anderton: Symmetry-breaking, reminds me of spin glass and net magnetic field Franklin Hu to Everyone: Only because a layperson is uninfluenced by mainstream dogma can easily see through the lies. Robert Kemp to Everyone: It requires a level of mathematical prowess! Franklin Hu to Everyone: The mathmatics of SR consist of very simple math, it takes prowess to accept the contradictory statements and accept them as being true eventhough it makes no sense. Franklin Hu to Everyone: There's nothing complex about the basic time dialation formulas for example. Al Schrader to Everyone: LOL Robert Kemp to Everyone: If the math is basic, then it should be simple for you to understand. But you don't display that understanding. Jerry Hynecek to Everyone: Robert, why do you buly Franklin. Focus on the theory instead. Franklin Hu to Everyone: I understand the what Einstein wrote is consistent with LR, so it all makes sense to me, I'm not confused. The confused people are the ones who want to say there is no preferred frame and thatis wrong. What is causing the confusion is that you you think there are no preferred frames, but having no preferred frames leads to wrong answers, but no preferred frames mush be correct. So you are confused. Al Schrader to Everyone: Even the Wright Brothers crashed a couple of times Robert Kemp to Everyone: Jerry, it is more comedy for me. Is it bullying is they keep jumping in your face. Al Schrader to Everyone: The Wrights were geniuses Franklin Hu to Everyone: Take the mainstream interpetation of SR to the landfill, that is truely made up garbage. Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Dr. Einstein was wrong with c = c' Howell, Bill - Alberta to Roger Anderton: Richter/ ANderton - sounds like Lucas' point about looking for another theory Robert Kemp to Everyone: Harry: point out one mistake that I can take a look at? Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Mr. Kemp: I just did. H Ricker to Everyone: See Baxter above. Al Schrader to Everyone: Is one third a mistake ? .33333333 forever ? If you have three apples and take away one apple you have a finite quantity not something that goes on infinitely Robert Kemp to Everyone: Baxter: we don't measure that we measure c = c' Robert Kemp to Everyone: Jerry I agree! Franklin Hu to Everyone: Robert, if you look how the derive the time dialation formula, it is done with a light beam moving perpendicular to the direction of travel, but you can equally do the same calculation with the light moving in the direction of travel and you get two contractictory time dialation formulas, that's Baxters paper. Al Schrader to Everyone: You can find mistakes in anything if you hack at it long enough Robert Kemp to Everyone: Let Harry do it, he claims to have done it. Jim Marsen to Everyone: It is the 2nd postulate of SR that needs to be challenged. If that is accepted, SR follows. Paulina to Everyone: Well, what did Boscovich say that gravity is? Nick Percival2 to Everyone: I agree with Marsen. Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Mr. Kemp: see www.k1man.com/c29.pdf Paulina to Everyone: Thank you for the remarks on the oscillations. Paulina to Everyone: Thank you for the presentation! Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Glad Robert Kemp is Back! Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Crank? Oh no! Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Don't call me late for dinner. Jim Marsen to Everyone: An alternative to Second Postulate is that ether is carried by astronomical bodies Al Schrader to Everyone: Michelson is 100 year old data Roger Tobie to Everyone: His audio cut out here. Al Schrader to Everyone: The speed of light is not constant Al Schrader to Everyone: Depends on the medium and the distance Al Schrader to Everyone: Light is slower through air than vacuum Al Schrader to Everyone: Light is slower through space than a vacuum also Dionysios G. Raftopoulos to Everyone: Thank you Roger and Greg. Thanks everybody. Al Schrader to Everyone: Light slows down over large distances same as waves in a pond Al Schrader to Everyone: Explains red shift Al Schrader to Everyone: Farther away the source, the greater the percieved shift Al Schrader to Everyone: Professor Hau at Harvard has just slowed light to 10 mph through frozen hydrogen (fact) Al Schrader to Everyone: perceived Al Schrader to Everyone: Einstein was a genius for his time Al Schrader to Everyone: The GPS satellites are changed because of the 10,000 mile distance from the Earth's gravity not from velocity Al Schrader to Everyone: If you take an alarm clock to the Moon it spins out of control Al Schrader to Everyone: You'll age faster on the Moon Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Velocity also seems to affect clock rates. Al Schrader to Everyone: Yes pehaps due to greater graviton impacts Glenn Baxter to Everyone: No clue what is causing it. Al Schrader to Everyone: I've put a digital watch into a centrifuge Our PAL Asija to Everyone: This might be a good subject for debate Al Schrader to Everyone: There is no limit to speed Al Schrader to Everyone: I've seen a craft that is faster than light Howell, Bill - Alberta to Roger Anderton: Great presentation Glenn Baxter to Everyone: Great job Roger and Greg. Glad Prof. Kemp is back! Al Schrader to Everyone: Nice meeting Al Schrader to Everyone: Greg is amazing ! enddoc