120714 NPA Ricker - Open Discussion On Problems Of Dissident Physics.txt ***************** Howell's notes (eg chat discussions verbally) Ricker (Philosopher of science) : - mainstream physics puts too much emphasis on formulas and experiments to match formulae - K1man-physics ??? http://k1man-report.blogspot.ca/ - book by Brian Baigrie "History of Electricity & Magnetism" - I see skeptic explanations that are far more sensible than official, accepted textbook science - I am a natura philosopher - I can look at mathematical physics and say whether it is right or wrong in its conclusions and the fit to facts. - Electricity & magnetism textbooks & math are NOT convincing representations of reality. In a number of places this is a big problem. - Physicists launch immediately into math before coming up with good descriptions of data. Mainstream physics is wrong because it doesn't come up with good descriptions. - People doing experiments and philosophy had a better grasp of reality than modern physicists. (baunes - does your book explain what is right) Robert ?baunes? - I remember his voice as a regular participant, but don't remember name? (? baunes, rkiehn ?): - NPA "dissidents" have attitude that "I can do physics the way I want", without mathematics, without following the approach of professional physics of last 500 physics that Newton introduced - This is "dia-physics" or "meta-physics" (make-believe physics), and has arisen over the last 10-15 years with the internet - Examples of Jeff Cook (NPA member) doing physics without credentials who has convinced himself that he is doing his own math correctly. There is no properly filter of an educational setting (Ricker: This is exactly the same problem with consensus physicists!) - Consensus versus convergence - Harry good point, induction that doesn't explain everything - (to Ricker) Field theory came from Faraday who was NOT a mathematian. (Ricker - Faraday re-discovered field theory which had been around for thousands of years as shown in my book) Professor Kean : - 66 years ago I was trained at MIT physics, at that time phsycists and engineers were trained that given unique initial conditions can predict unique outcomes. This is baloney - many possibilities can arise from unique iniitial conditions (non-equilibrium) David de Hilster : - making film on modern physics - post-atomic bomb, physics handed to "society of nerds" who will forgo truth to get their positions - their motivation is completely different - we have become arrogant in the 20th century - we don't need to know reality, and this happened in physics too. Universe has to fit theory. Neutrinos don't even exist. (Ricker agrees) - Margaret ?family name? mis-represents NPA. NPA mission is to explain mainstream physicists BETTER than the physicists. Mainstream physicist agreed with this - "... we are wrong at the most fundamental level ...". They are NOT going to tell the world that they have been wrong all along - this is what the NPA is doing. "We killed somebody and we got off scott-free." They will keep lying until they die. - We have a problem in the NPA - we DON'T need to come up with THE answer. Consensus in science & physics is wrong, and is part of the problem. - The minute that we say that we have the consensus answer, we're going wrong. Convergence, yes. :: Consensus - no! - What mainstream scientists do I constrained by peer pressure from moving against peer pressure. People will not change if they have to put food on the table. What baunes talks about should occur, but does not. Convergence exists whether you want to of not, but consensus should not - - World is dominated by mainstream scientists - if aliens landed we would be embarassed by our mainstream, NPA is closer to advanced aliens - we are questioning things. - ?Swartzchilds mathematics and black holes? Stephen Carrothers - math gives two masses Greg Volk - I get tired of all of the theories of everything. - We have theories that connect, but don't unify to final answer. Reality is that we will always have to change and redefine. Baunes - I do understand the mathematics. de Hilster - mathematics is unlimited, physics is NOT Robert Baunes - mathematics has to match nature Ricker - but the math DOESN'T match nature Volk - Jeff Cook is doing bvery good experiments and analysis, even if not a world-class mathematician Baunes - Your right, and I agree with his experiments. Ricker - mathematics of ?color? Ricker - ?situations? where all conditions are NOT covered, or where two laws conflict or no law applies. Francisco Meuller has tried to cover all of the cases in the context of Special Theory of Relativity. Einstein claimed to cover electromagnetic induction and remove inconsistencies. Mueller's NPA paper : "An experiment disproof of Special Relativity" E cross B = 0, but experiments do show an emf. I think that this is interesting. ?PAL Asia? - I agree with Francisco Meuller should be paid attention to, but nobody is ready to do that. I don't know why. Ricker - Meuller's word is a very narrow aspect, and perhaps few people have looked at his work. ?PAL Asia? - Even the smallest lies in a narrow field affect the wohole ocean. Richer - I believe the NPA should be more of a vehicle for eduction regarding challenging the mainstream claims. Volk - Most people coming into the NPA with their own agenda Richer - I consider myself knowledgeable on EM induction, Cook's experiments are the most extensive. Einstein's theory of Relativity does not fit. Dave dH - NPA needs to ?post challenges? Volk - This is the reason that we established the International Science Foundation - to fund experiments. Dave dH - We already have experiemental results to start with. Volk - all categories of theories on gravity, relativity. Do what Bob dH is doing with gravity. Richer - Field theory, action at a distance, we need to relate experimental evidence to theories and show how they lay out. I favour a field theory. Textbooks & consensus is "empty physics" - only "give the truth". Dave dH - I've been reading neo-mechanics Volk - We can have particle & field at same time - no problem being both. Richer - I'm just saying that we should be laying out these issues. Bob dH - Gravity group likes to compare theories to valid experiments (eg Wang eclipse & speed of gravity - 15 years ago). Will have a list of experiments compared against theories. Richer - Ivor Catt's theory of EM, Forrester ?results? Hoersteadt thought that Electricity & Magnetism has to be related to one another, led to his 1820 experiment showing that. Controversy continued to ~1850, and until electron discovered. Ivor Catt's experiments refute that electricity leads to magnetism!! Dissident physics arises from facts not fitting the theories. NPA dissidence arises from these discrepancies. Volk - NPA needs to be systematic about categorising hundreds of discrepancies that we have. We have to explain why. Then comparing theories to the results. Richer - Glen Baxter is working with Nick and I to do mp3 recordings. I would like to get these interview-discussions on NPA site. It's easier to talk to someone than to write paper/document. Richer - Again I want to plug Forrest Bishop's paper. Good overview of Catt issue. ***************** Howell's questions David de Hilter: I agree with your statements, and I feel that the drivers and attitudes of professional scientists are quite different than the "theoretic" idea of how science is done. Scientists are human, and belief systems seems far stronger than independent, non-concensus thinking. David de Hilter: I agree "... We have a problem in the NPA - we DON'T need to come up with THE answer. Consnesus in science & physics is wrong, and is part of the problem. ..." Harry Ricker: Please state your full list of physics problems lacking adequate descriptions before building mathematical models (eg you've mentioned stability of ?planets?) Robert Baunes: Yes, we did put a man of the moon without having all of the answers. Very good modelling and practical is not a guarantee that all the model is correct, and it is certainly no guarantee of correctness under un-encountered evironments. Furthermore, adjustements to estimates are ongoing in control systems - successive approximations don't require complete initial answers. Greg Volk: I like the self-imposed attitude of "multiple conflicting hypothesis" to keep myself from having a favourite and becoming a believer. Greg Volk : Aren't you also a field theory enthusiast? ****************** Chat line Robert Kemp to Everyone: Kiehn: Hope you feel better. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: That number is not toll free Robert Kemp to Everyone: Someone posted a paper stating that physics can be done without math. Do you think unmuting is easy for those! David de Hilster to Everyone: Greg, get that PDF and upload it. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Well said, Harry Greg Volk to Everyone: What pdf? Greg Volk to Everyone: David, can people unmute themselves after I mute them? Thierry De Mees to Everyone: Without maths one can't come to more complex situations... rkiehn to Everyone: Metaphysics IMO baunes to Everyone: yes it dos baunes to Everyone: does baunes to Everyone: depends what qs one use. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THIS BEAUTIFUL PARAPHRASE BY A PHYSICIST NAMED E.H. WALKER – TAKEN FROM “DANCING ... MASTER” p88“Consciousness may be associated with all quantum mechanical processes..... since everything that occurs is ultimately the result of one or more quantum mechanical events, the universe is “inhabited” by an almost unlimited number of rather discrete conscious, usually non-thinking entities that are responsible for the detailed workings of the universe.” baunes to Everyone: wave eqs give uniq results. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THE MAJOR MISTAKE OF PHYSICS IS NOT TO RECOGNIZE THE AETHERS. george james ducas to Everyone: i agree, there are many ways to get the same results george james ducas to Everyone: there are many ways to create mass george james ducas to Everyone: many ways to create gravity Thierry De Mees to Everyone: physics provide uniqueness, unless you interpret it wrong. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/AETHER_FURTHER_PROOF.pdf Our PAL Asija to Everyone: Except for imbalance of powers, there is very little difference between main stram and NPA regarding their procedures, relations with others etc., MIKE EMERY to Everyone: BOTH PHYSICS AND NATURAL PHILOSOPHY HAVE TO TOGGLE TO THE AETHERS george james ducas to Everyone: he is the modern day priest of the secular world, "the physics" Richard Jesch to Everyone: At some point all expressions resort to hand waving arguements. This is a necessary evil. I agree that there should be rigor. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: ATTRACTION AND GRAVITY ARE AN AFFINITY FOR INFORMATION Lou LaFollette to Everyone: The Journal Galilean Electrodynamics is for the dissident physicists. The NPA is intended to be a little broader in its focus. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THE RIGOR IS THE RULE = "I AM THAT I AM" MIKE EMERY to Everyone: I AM THAT I AM BECOMES "LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE" MIKE EMERY to Everyone: GRAIN GROWTH IS THE PROOF OF THE RULE - LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE MIKE EMERY to Everyone: http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/GRAIN-GROWTH.pdf Greg Volk to Everyone: ad·um·brate Report or represent in outline. Indicate faintly. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THE PHYSICS OF NEWTON LEADS TO A HARD MASSY BUILDING BLOCK, WHICH DOES NOT EXIST MIKE EMERY to Everyone: “Consciousness may be associated with all quantum mechanical processes..... since everything that occurs is ultimately the result of one or more quantum mechanical events, the universe is “inhabited” by an almost unlimited number of rather discrete conscious, usually non-thinking entities that are responsible for the detailed workings of the universe.” MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CONSCIOUSNESS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY DETAILED WORKIING OF THE UNIVERSE MIKE EMERY to Everyone: AND HERE IS THE PROOF OF THAT MIKE EMERY to Everyone: http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/CONSCIOUSNESS_IS_EVERY_WHERE.pdf MIKE EMERY to Everyone: MAGNETISM IS WHAT I CALL A 3-D ENERGY MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CONSCIOUSNESS EXISTS AND EMANATES FROM THE AETHERS, WHICH ARE 2-D MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CORRECT - THE FIELD IS THERE, BUT IT IS NOT AT ALL LIKE WHAT PHYSICS ACCEPTS MIKE EMERY to Everyone: I.E. THE FACTS DO NOT FIT ANY CURRENT THEORY rkiehn to Everyone: The Greeks did not use the idea of zero and were frightened by negative numbers. Charles Seife in the book "Zero" MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CORRECT - THERE IS NO ZERO POINT paul schroeder to Everyone: Newton didnt introduce action at a distance, he even denies connection to it. He just couldnt define the workings of gravity MIKE EMERY to Everyone: http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/ZERO_POINT_ENERGY.pdf MIKE EMERY to Everyone: ZERO POINT IS A MIS-NOMER Thierry De Mees to Everyone: Anybody may find the answers Greg Volk to Everyone: I've lost control. I can''t mute or unmute anybody, including myself. This happened about 10 minutes ago. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: We have a lot of MIT graduates here. rkiehn to Everyone: Right ON Lou MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THE TRUTH IS TOO SIMPLE - ITS ALL CONSCIOUNESS MIKE EMERY to Everyone: ALTHOUGH THERE ARE SOME AMAZING THINGS THAT GO ON WITHIN THE AETHERS IN ORDER FOR MATTER TO MANIFEST rkiehn to Everyone: Too bad that deHilster did not enjoy the academic world. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: TO HAVE FREQUENCY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A TORROID - THOSE TORROIDS FORM IN THE AETHERS AND THEN DISSOLVE mikeAndrescavage to Everyone: who's talking David de Hilster to Everyone: I have a masters degree and enjoyed college. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: MATTER BLINKS IN AND OUT OF THIS REALM - THAT IS A FACT THAT PHYSICS HAS KNOWN SINCE THE 1930s Barry to Everyone: but who is the guy that talks ? Bill Howell 1-613-995-5432 to Everyone: David de Hilter: I agree with your statements, and I feel that the drivers and attitudes of professional scientists are quite different than the "theoretic" idea of how science is done. Scientists are human, and belief systems seems far stronger than independent, non-concensus thinking. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: If you are going to filter you have to know what truth is to begin with. rkiehn to Everyone: Then dont complain about it. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CORRECT DAVID - BELIEFS ARE FOUNDATIONAL TO THE EGO - THE VAST MAJORITY OF PHYSICS IS TIED TO EGO rkiehn to Everyone: Do the experiment of two current carrying wires. Case 1 currents flow in the same direction. Case 2 currents flow in opposite directions, MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CORRECT - PHYSICS = THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE, THE STUDY THEREOF MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CLIVE BAXTER IS A NATURAL SCIENTIST, HE DISCOVERED THAT PLANTS HAVE THOUGHTS, FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS, PLUS LONG AND SHORT TERM MEMORY MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CLIVE AS THE WORLD'S FOREMOST POLYGRAPH EXPERT AND HE INTERROGATED HIS HOUSE PLANT MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CLIVE IS STILL ALIVE MIKE EMERY to Everyone: DAVID WILCOCK HAS VISITED HIM RECENTLY Thierry De Mees to Everyone: One must connect phyics to maths. Einstein didn't do that. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: AND PATRICK FLANAGAN SPENT TWO WEEKS WITH HIM MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CONSCIOUSNESS EXISTED BEFORE MATH rkiehn to Everyone: Read Arnold Sommerfeld, Landau, Stratton, for good EM discussions. baunes to Everyone: No, math creates consciousness. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: IN A LARGE WAY MATH DISCONNECTS US FROM CONSCIOUSNESS Lou LaFollette to Everyone: All the great scientists did their work outside the conventional institutions of the time. They were all dissidents even Einstein. Jeff Cook may come up with something totally new. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: VIKTOR SCHAUBERGER IS AWESOME MIKE EMERY to Everyone: A REAL NATURAL SCIENTIST MIKE EMERY to Everyone: HERE IS THE REAL ORIGIN OF LIFE AND IT IS NOT BASED ON MATH MIKE EMERY to Everyone: http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/THE_ORIGIN_OF_LIFE-5.PDF rkiehn to Everyone: For units in physics and math, see E.J. Post and Schouten rkiehn to Everyone: I hear dehilster in echo. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THERE IS ONLY ONE SOVEREIGN UNIT - THE QUANTUM MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THE QUANTUM IS AN ANU, INSIDE OF AN AETHERIC CELL - ITS QUITE CLEAR Greg Volk to Everyone: Somebody's breathing heavily. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THE PRESENCE OF THE AETHERS IS AN ABSOLUTE MIKE EMERY to Everyone: THEREFORE, STUFF MANIFESTS DIVINELY WITHIN THE AETHER MIKE EMERY to Everyone: WAVES DO NOT PROPAGATE THRU A VACUUM, WHICH IS THE BASIS OF PHYSICS EVER SINCE THE MICHAELSON MORELY baunes to Everyone: Physicst know that physics has many huge holes. They all admit that. They also know that 1-restart it all, 2- patch it. They are curently patching it. Some are trying to rewrite it all. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: YES, START WITH THE FACT OF THE AETHERS MIKE EMERY to Everyone: MATTER BLINKS IN AND OUT OF THIS REALM - THAT'S A FACT Bill Howell 1-613-995-5432 to Everyone: David de Hilter: I agree "... We have a problem in the NPA - we DON'T need to come up with THE answer. Consnesus in science & physics is wrong, and is part of the problem. ..." MIKE EMERY to Everyone: BECAUSE IT MIRRORS THRU THE AETHERS Lou LaFollette to Everyone: That is what Dr. Kiehn was talking about - multiple solutions for non-equilibrium systems MIKE EMERY to Everyone: CONSENSUS IS NOT REQUIRED TO TOGGLE TO THE AETHERS - ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS OPEN YOUR EYES AND MIND MIKE EMERY to Everyone: http://blog.hasslberger.com/docs/AETHER_FURTHER_PROOF.pdf HERE YOU HAVE OVER 11 VIEWS OF THE AETHERS rkiehn to Everyone: Prediction is not unique for non-equilibrium systems MIKE EMERY to Everyone: DREAMS - HERE'S A GOOD ONE FOR PHYSICS. THIS IS A FACT, EVERY PERSON ON THIS PLANET HAS HAD A PRE-COGNITIVE DREAM OR DE JA VU - HOW DO THEY ALL MESH TOGETHER? baunes to Everyone: mike, remove caps. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: ELECTROMAGNETICALLY, HOW DO ALL OF THOSE DREAM MESH? MIKE EMERY to Everyone: I CAN'T SEE THE LOWER CASE THAT WELL baunes to Everyone: mike, r emove caps or I will boot you off. MIKE EMERY to Everyone: OK GOOD BYE - baunes to Everyone: whos is the dignbat who has music on?? Robert Kemp to Everyone: Greg: I agree! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Agreed, Greg george james ducas to Everyone: were done and i did it, TDUFT Lou LaFollette to Everyone: They like to pretend that they have solved everything Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Robert - You can't filter until all the facts are known. We don't yet know all the facts. Thus we need to have ideas in competition. As long as there is free competition of ideas - the best ones will prove out. Bill Howell 1-613-995-5432 to Everyone: Harry Ricker: Please state your full list of physics problems lacking adequate descriptions before building mathematical models (eg you've mentioned stability of ?planets?) rkiehn to Everyone: What is field theory for you?? Robert Kemp to Everyone: Field Theory is explained with an Ideal Gas Model DonEMitchell to Everyone: The tech-sector expanded in the 80s and 90s without any of the managers having a clue what made the tech tick DonEMitchell to Everyone: Science today can tell the public anything, and who has a clue what's really true? paul schroeder to Everyone: Don ; like Higgs Boson just discovered - to entertain the public DonEMitchell to Everyone: The press says the 'God Particle' is discovered, but CERN states that they have strong candidates for a Higgs Boson event. No weight-challenged lady has yet to sing. Barry to Everyone: I don't thionk that going to the Moon requires Special Relativity Lou LaFollette to Everyone: It worked well enough. But we can't yet do many things. Bob de Hilster to Everyone: There is equation or law written by man that will ever precisely describe nature Bob de Hilster to Everyone: NO equation or law Robert Kemp to Everyone: z^2 = x^2 + y^2 Richard Jesch to Everyone: I do Robert Kemp to Everyone: That Pythragean Law works precisely1 Bob de Hilster to Everyone: It is just math, not nature. Richard Jesch to Everyone: He was there the day that John and Lee proposed the NPA DonEMitchell to Everyone: What's the equation for life and death? That's a certain law that's not avoided. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Pull out your ruller x=3, y = 4, z = 5, measue it!! Richard Jesch to Everyone: I mailed his aparatus back to Florida after NPA 17 Bill Howell 1-613-995-5432 to Everyone: Robert Baunes: Yes, we did put a man of the moon without having all of the answers. Very good modelling and practical is not a guarantee that all the model is correct, and it is certainly no guarantee of correctness under un-encountered evironments. Furthermore, adjustements to estimates are ongoing in control systems - successive approximations don't require complete initial answers. Richard Jesch to Everyone: The Homopolar induction experiment was very expilcit. Our PAL Asija to Everyone: Man on the moon was a success of engineers and management and not science and math of Einstein. Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Agreed, Pal DonEMitchell to Everyone: After Podkletnov's gravity experiment excited the 'Breakthrough Propulsion Project' (which got defunded), Evgeny said, "Nasa is working with a nuts-n-bolts mentality." (From an interview now on Tim Ventura's site). Richard Jesch to Everyone: The experimental apparatus and all of the data was on a table for all to see at NPA 17. Thierry De Mees to Everyone: Where can I find the details of that experiment? DonEMitchell to Everyone: Key topic is about knowledge management within human proclivities with a persnicity toward tribal behavior. Richard Jesch to Everyone: If one claims it was botched or a hoax, Please shou us where the error was. Do not just say,,, "The result does not fit my theory so it must be false'" Our PAL Asija to Everyone: Doesnt NPA also ignore somethings. Doesn''t everybody of necessity ignore somethings and choose to believe other things as a function of theier world view. george james ducas to Everyone: you have to leave and come back george james ducas to Everyone: baby come back, you can blame it all on me george james ducas to Everyone: :O) Richard Jesch to Everyone: lol Robert Kemp to Everyone: PAL: That is true! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Michelson Morley was a slight deviation. Unfortunately continuing slight deviations are ignored. george james ducas to Everyone: you are all right Robert Kemp to Everyone: Greg: Great statements! Bill Howell 1-613-995-5432 to Everyone: Greg Volk: I like the self-imposed attitude of "multiple conflicting hypothesis" to keep myself from having a favourite and becoming a believer. Thierry De Mees to Everyone: The success of a theory is the quantity and quality of its predictions. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Thierry: That is righ! Robert Kemp to Everyone: Right! rkiehn to Everyone: Prediction implies determinism, Robert Kemp to Everyone: Kiehn: Yes. DonEMitchell to Everyone: I will support that initiative, David! DonEMitchell to Everyone: Wiki-ments Forrest Bishop to Everyone: Harry, what was that table of phenomena to be explained? baunes to Everyone: gotas go DonEMitchell to Everyone: Experi-pedia Robert Kemp to Everyone: David: Yes. Someone need to verify experiments. DonEMitchell to Everyone: Hitch-hicker's guide to reality, NPA experimental 'ontology' DonEMitchell to Everyone: What motivates millions of contribution from the public at Wikipdeia??? Can scientists replicate the same? David de Hilster to Everyone: Harry: neo-mechanics will change your mind on that. DonEMitchell to Everyone: science-pedia Thierry De Mees to Everyone: Field theory is a tool, not an explanation of how it exactly works. David de Hilster to Everyone: In my opinion, neo-mechanics busts this problem. Bill Howell 1-613-995-5432 to Everyone: Greg Volk : Aren't you also a field theory enthusiast? rkiehn to Everyone: Right on Both Lou LaFollette to Everyone: There are a group of us interested in thermodynamics, entropy and irreversibility. I am interested in seeing that topic pursued. rkiehn to Everyone: I have permitted downloads of 6 monographs on therm0 Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Dr. Kiehn - I have them. David de Hilster to Everyone: I have to go... Sorry! Great discussion Harry. Thanks for your efforts. I greatly appreciate and respect your work. Keep it up! David de Hilster to Everyone: Have another talk! Greg, maybe given Harry another time for this type of discussion. Make Harry the head of the "Meta-physics" group! David de Hilster to Everyone: cheers, all... rkiehn to Everyone: In modern EM the vector and scalar potentials generate a E and B "fields" . Actually two components which are field intensities of Thermo. Forrest Bishop to Everyone: I think I'm muted. The paper is at NPA site. rkiehn to Everyone: I do not agree with Catt. Forrest Bishop to Everyone: Mainstream electric current theory isn't simply inconsistent with observation, it's inconsistent with itself. rkiehn to Everyone: In pre "modern" EM the concept of sources are used to compute D and H Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Different rules may apply in different systems rkiehn to Everyone: which are excitations in a thermo sense DonEMitchell to Everyone: But thank you! Robert Kemp to Everyone: Ricker: That is true, that does work better for some. Great idea. rkiehn to Everyone: I recommend that if you are going to use math make sure you know the limitations of tensor analysis. Forrest Bishop to Everyone: thannks, my mike won't work! Lou LaFollette to Everyone: Thanks Harry and Greg. Good discussion Forrest Bishop to Everyone: the unmute button in Fuse interface is gone. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Thanks Harry, Greg, and David, for the great discussion. Our PAL Asija to Everyone: More often is good idea Robert Kemp to Everyone: And, others that I did not mention, that participated. Thanks! Forrest Bishop to Everyone: /*54 Dionysios G. Raftopoulos to Everyone: Thanks Harry, Greg.Thanks everybody. Forrest Bishop to Everyone: /*54 is code for "I'm cleaning my keyboard. :) Lou LaFollette to Everyone: I think that we lost the unmute button as Forrest poinnted out. Robert Kemp to Everyone: Ricker: Thanks for being tough skinned! enddoc